Association Forum - Balanced Rudder

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Balanced Rudder

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Previous Page | Next Page

Author

Topic

Page: of 4

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 12:00:50

Hey Dave... great story about the professor. We had the water ballast argument shortly before your entrance to the forum many years ago. In that argument was a new 250 owner, a physics professor from Stanford who argued the same as your professor.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 12:25:16

OK...here's what I know now. I look at the windex at the top of the mast and keep the little orange square from being in between the two angled arms. I steer to windward until the sails start to luff and then move back away so the sails will stop luffing. I then move the stick thing, called a tiller, in the direction that I want to go, but always remembering that little orange square. If I forget it, then I could end up in irons. Then when I am on a long windward or downwind tack, I get something to drink and enjoy the weather and the sail....

Isn't that about it?

oops..almost forgot rule number 1 - Do whatever the admiral tells me to do.

Edited by - cat1951 on 12/13/2006 12:28:59

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 14:33:41

Going back to the original subject of the difference between the new and old rudders, I think I have a clearer picture concerning the better performance reported with the new rudder...the CLR has moved aft.

With the CLR further aft, a boat would be able to carry full sails longer as the wind pipes up. This somewhat explains Derek's observation that above 10kts with the original rudder, his tiller was was pulled under his chin due to excessive weatherhelm, yet with the new rudder, he had two finger control in any wind.

Any thoughts?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 15:11:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">With the CLR further aft, a boat would be able to carry full sails longer as the wind pipes up.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've looked through prior posts in this thread to find where someone made the statement that the balanced rudder causes the CLR of the boat to move aft, and haven't been able to find it. Nevertheless, I don't think changing from an old style rudder to a balanced rudder would move the boat's basic CLR to any appreciable degree. The CLR is based on the sum of all the underwater surfaces of the boat. The basic hull shape and size isn't changed. The keel shape and size isn't changed. The only difference would be in the shape and size of the two rudders, and it would be so slight that I doubt that it would move the boat's CLR to an appreciable extent. Therefore, I don't think it would significantly affect the boat's ability to carry it's full sail area.

I wouldn't take Derek's statement too literally about pulling his tiller up to his chin in 10 knots of wind. I think he might have been exaggerating slightly for dramatic effect. I just can't imagine him actually having to pull the tiller up to his chin, unless he's a lot shorter than I think he is.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 16:06:46

Sorry Steve! It was a literal statement. I was sailing with a good friend one time - he is a very good racer and a knowlegeable sailor -we had a 100 up and a full main. The wind kicked up to about 15 knots and he did not believe the amount of weather helm. After I installed the new rudder he came sailing with me again and this time could not believe the feel of "power steering".
I can't explain why (or really need to!) I just enjoy it - and it has certainly made racing easier on the biceps!

BTW I'm 5'5".

Edited by - Derek Crawford on 12/13/2006 16:08:53

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 17:52:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I've looked through prior posts in this thread to find where someone made the statement that the balanced rudder causes the CLR of the boat to move aft, and haven't been able to find it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's because it just came up in my last post.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Nevertheless, I don't think changing from an old style rudder to a balanced rudder would move the boat's basic CLR to any appreciable degree.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To see what profound effects a rudder design change can do to a boats performance, one only has to wander over to the C250 forum. I think they've had four different designs.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 19:43:58

Don is right, there have been four iterations of rudders from Catalina plus one from IDA Sailor and there can be a great difference in performance such as control ability, torque values and beaching or blade designs.

But... I'm in agreement with Steve that a rudder design doesn't have anything much to do with boat balance, except balanced ones can mask boat imbalance.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 12/13/2006 19:45:38

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 20:42:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 ...there have been four iterations of rudders...and there can be a great difference in performance.

But...a rudder design doesn't have anything much to do with boat balance,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Uh?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 21:00:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The rudder doesn't create or eliminate the windward keel angle--it just changes it slightly to counter weather helm. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave, we are a nat's hair from getting there but I'm doubting my wordsmith abilities to avoid a DNF.

I agree with you 100% that the hull and keel offer the ability for rudder deflection to yaw and thus turn a boat.

The problem here is that there is rudder deflection but no turning because the deflection is simply an equal and opposite reaction to weather helm forces to balance the boat for a straight course. The boat course is straight so the keel is straight.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> It is an entirely separate dynamic than weather or lee helm. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I might have to eat those words.

The boat yaw created by the course and track difference does play a part in weather helm but it is a minor one and hence why I thought and think it should be dissected out of that issue. An argument that it does have a relationship is reasonable.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 21:04:14

Don...lol

Well, of course the rudder has a whole lot to do with boat balance in that it must provide the opposite reaction to weather helm forces if the boat is to hold a straight course.

What I meant was in relationship to your thought that a rudder design could influence the CLR dramatically.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 12/13/2006 21:09:18

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 21:16:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Hey Dave... great story about the professor. We had the water ballast argument shortly before your entrance to the forum many years ago. In that argument was a new 250 owner, a physics professor from Stanford who argued the same as your professor.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's the one! That argument was between him and me! I was a new kid on the block--hadn't bought our C-25 yet, but had been looking at the C-250 and figuring out this water ballast concept... He made his assertion, I tried to explain why it was not quite right, he got defensive, I tried some more, he got ugly, and I bowed out. It was amazing--so simple I hesitate to call it physics. (...more like "bathroom scale".) Perhaps somewhere there's still a Stanford physics professor who's sailing a C-250 and still doesn't understand how it works... Not my problem. Glad he wasn't participating in this last discussion.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 21:27:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart
 Dave, we are a nat's hair from getting there... An argument that it does have a relationship is reasonable.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Like I said, we're probably both right (after I had my shower). If only the Sunnis and the Shiites could get to this point!

Thanks, Steve, that was fun!

Peace...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/13/2006 21:31:19

mashedcat
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2006 : 21:28:10

All I asked was, "does a balanced rudder make a difference? And in what way?" Thanks for the discussion, it's an ongoing education.

Edited by - mashedcat on 12/13/2006 21:30:50

oldsalt
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 05:35:05

From another perspective.

Much has been said here regarding benefits , or lack thereof, of the balanced rudder.

Some of it anectdotal by those who've owned both, and some of it based on speculation by those who haven't sailed with one at all, but little has been said about the poor design and shortcomings of the original rudder which is an awful, unbalanced foil and was most certainly built with low cost being the most important consideration.

I wish someone could get their hands on 3 D cad drawings of each and post them here, because some of what has been stated regarding the overall shape, cord and aspect ratio of the balanced rudder is simply erronious.

There were quite a few original design features incorporated into the Catalina 25 that needed improvement, and each can be argued to have trade offs as well.

It can be said that the original aluminum spreader sockets saved weight aloft over the stainless replacements. Did they need improvement?

Yes.

Did the original factory aluminum motor brackets need improvement?

How about the original stemhead fitting?

When the rigging was incresed in size years back that added weight aloft and windage as well, but it was an improvement.

The original rudder is another area where improvement would benefit the sailing charactoristics of the boats.

It was a pretty poor, inefficient design.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 08:39:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oldsalt
 I wish someone could get their hands on 3 D cad drawings of each and post them here, because some of what has been stated regarding the overall shape, cord and aspect ratio of the balanced rudder is simply erronious.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm not sure what you're referring to here... but keep in mind there are several balanced rudder designs for the C-25 out there now--the one Catalina Direct shows on their site is quite different from the one I bought from them in 2001. Whether the aspect ratio has changed, I don't know--I doubt that it's significantly different. The way I mounted mine, it probably drew a few inches more than it was designed to--I figured that couldn't hurt when heeled. But I suspect it was because it was designed for the "Mark IV" transom that didn't have the cutout, and I wanted the tiller fairly low in the cutout so it could be tilted up under the traveler and tied to the mainsheet. (That's my new method for self-steering...

)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/14/2006 08:43:58

cat1951
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 09:55:08

I have just one last question. I have read and understand "most" of what has been written in this thread. I am not racing, and am just a relative beginner in this sport/hobby. I have a 1985 Standard Rig with a furled 150 genoa and the old style rudder. Since I am not racing and mostly cruising, I am not into the get one more .1kt out of our boat. At least not yet.

It seems to me, after reading all of the posts here, that most of what I gain with the new rudder is ease of steering. Which for the Admiral is not a bad thing. The other gains are somewhat subtle and not as dramatic.

So if you were me, would you buy the new style rudder, or pass. At least for now.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 10:16:39

I have owned and sailed both. I never felt the need to replace my old one on my 82, I think the balanced one is nice on my 89. If I were forced to replace the rudder I would not limit my choices to the "official" Catalina specs. I would investigate some "J" boat rudders, not balanced but very nice foils with good hardware, (the S2 Grand Slam 7.9 kick-up rudder is awesome, but probably unavailable).

Mike, I would pass.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 10:28:56

Thanks Frank, that was my thinking. The original rudder on our 25 is in great shape so I will look at other things to work on.

Edited by - on

Doug C.
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 11:07:44

Mike,
One thing to consider in making priorities is how you will use the boat. If coastal cruising is in the mix, and long hours at the tiller are expected, you will be glad if you have the balanced rudder.

On a recent cruise in the Sea of Cortez long hours at the tiller were required. On the final leg, which was a 80 mile segment, I thought I would use 'Otto' the pilot but he decided that was a good time to go on strike. 15 hours at the tiller for is a long time for Mo and I, and would have been much worse without a balanced rudder.

I also have a Windrose 24 with a rudder that is essentially a slab of shaped mahogany, it will give you a good workout. I would not want to have to horse that rudder on a long crossing.

Just food for thought...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 12:59:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Doug C.
 Mike,
One thing to consider in making priorities is how you will use the boat. If coastal cruising is in the mix, and long hours at the tiller are expected, you will be glad if you have the balanced rudder...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
For about the same boat units or fewer, a tiller pilot would be much more help.

Edited by - on

Doug C.
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 16:29:17

Good point Dave, but power consumption is an issue as well as equipment failure, as we had. I guess if I had a good standard rudder I might be torn between adding 'Otto' or getting a balanced rudder.

I think I would still side with the balanced rudder mostly because I prefer to man the tiller. 'Otto' is a bit noisy, and on cruises he can eat up a bunch of power. If power gets to low then I can't have my microwave popcorn....

Edited by - Doug C. on 12/14/2006 16:30:51

oldsalt
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 18:31:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cat1951
 

So if you were me, would you buy the new style rudder, or pass. At least for now.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Without any reservations to the contary, I'd certainly recommend that you buy one, if you have the cash to spend on improving the quality of your sailing experience.

Much of the "meat" on this matter has been somewhat hidden with arcane discussions and minutia (mine included, Ive added my share to the stew

), which while extremely interesting to read and participate in, has caused the meat to get "lost in the sauce".

The technical aspects of the hydrodynamic forces you encounter every moment you're sailing, are dynamic rather than constant in nature, and are the stuff supercomputers running specialized programs are made for.

Factor in constantly changing sea state, prevailing wind conditions, puffs, shifts, sail trim, heel angles etc. and you run into areas where even America's Cup syndicates with their virtually unlimited resources have failed to arrive at superior or even adequate designs for the set of conditions for the anticipated sailing envelope.

They think these things through pretty well but some of the resulting vessels are non competetive dogs, a few of which literally fall apart on the course.

I'm not sure we can analyze all the necessary data in our heads so I'll tell you I'm speaking from plenty of real sea experience with both rudders.

The balanced rudder represents an exponential improvement over the old design and what it does is more than worth the bucks.

You and the Admiral will enjoy sailing more, with easier steering, less fatigue and more control; as a result you'll probably sail more confidently and more often.

If you do decide to go with the balanced rudder from Catalina Direct be sure to let them know the hull number and year of you boat so they can supply you with the right one, and buy it with the pintles attached so it fits perfectly on your transom.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the kind of excellent discussion this thread has engendered.

But if you have the cash; buy the rudder.

Edited by - oldsalt on 12/14/2006 18:43:17

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 19:13:31

We've never taken a poll (Maybe we should.), but I suspect a fairly strong majority of C25s are still equipped with non-balanced rudders. I also suspect most people would probably prefer a balanced rudder. Many people who have balanced rudders buy them as a replacement, when their original rudder deteriorates beyond repair. Most people don't seem to be sufficiently motivated to buy a balanced rudder until they have to replace the old one.

What that means is, for most people, the question is mostly one of economics, rather than boat performance or other issues. A balanced rudder would be nice to have, but, we all have to choose between a new mattress to help our aching back, or a balanced rudder; or school tuition for our kids, or a balanced rudder. If you have a little extra money to spend on a balanced rudder, you'd probably enjoy it. If not, your boat will still sail as well as a few thousand other C25s that are still using non-balanced rudders.

Edited by - on

cat1951
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
636 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 20:25:10

Well, as far as coastal cruising is concerned, there aren't many coasts here in Oklahoma. And a tiller pilot on this lake seems to be overkill. Our longest tack leg so far has been approximately 4 miles when the wind was in the right direction. If we ever get to coastal cruising, I would suspect that we would move up in size for both the Admiral's and my feelings of security.

We are empty nesters now as my son graduated from O.U. a year ago and has a great job at the university. So budgetary matters are not what they used to be. There are only a few projects that I have on the list that are costly.. one is a new bottom job (probably after next season) and another is a new mainsail (more than likely after the bottom job.) Other than those two, our other projects are well within our budget... a butane canister dual burner stove for the galley that I will build into the old stove area, a queen size inflatible bed in the main cabin (already have the bed), and some custom made cockpit cushions.

The only other project we have going is pretty big in scope and has nothing to do with sailing. Well it does indirectly. We are selling our present home and are downsizing since us and the dog are the only dwellers at home now. And best of all, we are moving closer to the lake where we keep the boat. Once the new house is completed (probably next July) then we will concentrate our efforts on the boat. So it isn't the cost, it's more of a factor on where we sail, how we sail, and what type of environment we have our boat in. That's at the basis of my question.

Edited by - cat1951 on 12/14/2006 20:26:59

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2006 : 22:03:02

Hi Mike... I bought our balanced rudder because we needed a new rudder, and was very pleasantly surprised by its characteristics. But for a couple knocking around on a lake, whose rudder is in fine condition, I'd have to say (in New Yorkese), "Fuggetaboutit!" It should be on your list, but I'm not convinced it should be that high on the list for your interests.

Best of luck in your new digs! Empty-nesting can be one of the best times in life!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/14/2006 22:05:28

Page: of 4

Topic

Previous Page | Next Page

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.