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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

VC17

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glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/19/2007 : 18:31:35

If schedules, weather and budget work out, I will try to remove and repaint the bottom on "Great Escape" this spring (as well as formally rename her). I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons of ablative vs. hard bottom paints and pose the following naive question. Since VC17 does not maintain its antifouling capability from season to season, it is necessary to reapply it every spring. Does this mean that the paint continues to build up in thickness until at some point the whole process of removing the bottom paint and repainting must start over again?

Gerry Livingston, Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2007 : 19:42:42

The paint bleeds off. The only time you will really need to sand her down all the way is when you will need to redo the barrier coat. It will not build up to a point where you really need to knock it back. At the very most, a sponge with lacquer thinner (or some other spirit don't quote me on the correct one) used to thin it out will be needed prior to repainting, but even that is every 4 or 5 years.

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2007 : 20:11:32

VC17 wipes off with standard drug store rubbing alcohol. As Duane said, it won't build up that far though.
Be aware that there are a few different kinds of VC17. I use VC17m Extra, because my boat is kept in salt water, you don't need, but can use the "extra" type in fresh water.
Another tip, you may already know, is to use a different color than the final coat will be for your first coat, that way you will know when it is time to recoat.
VC17 is probably one of the easiest and lowest effort bottom paints there is.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2007 : 10:00:16

If I knew who invented VC 17m Extra with Biolux I would marry him. It is the right paint for fresh water too, slime is our issue and it does the best job I have seen, no ablative touches it at our club.
[url="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10918|296162|11000|311496|368288|586734&id=736616"]Defender link[/url]

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2007 : 11:02:40

Try WM's CCP. Gotta mix the hell out of it( bottom half of the gallon was solid) I'm in my fifth year with it and it hasn't come through to the signal coat yet. Of course the applicator was a pro, even knew how to mix paint

C'est Moi

.

Dang New York State law requires that the yard does the painting, but they employ near brain dead applicators. It seems that I'll have to trailer it home soon so that I might repaint the bottom myself.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2007 : 12:05:07

A little pontificating from Frank, I do not intend to offend though I am sure I will. This is directed to Gerry who sails in Vermont.
Bottom paint is an amazing topic, first, no one wants to believe the hundreds of dollars they spent were not spent in the best possible way, second it requires research to select one and no one wants to believe they did not come to the best possible conclusion, third there are some bragging rights to a good bottom that is working well and no one wants the bearded bottom that serves as an example for others.
As a fresh water sailor with a boat on a trailer over the winter and in a slip all season and the desire to save money buy doing it myself, I have tried modern abalative, VC 17 and back in the day hard TBF paint. In my experience ablative paint is the worst possible choice because it is so rough; there is no rational defense for choosing to drag a drogue chute for no reason. I believe ablative paint comes into its own on boats much larger than ours and because it does a good job on them due to its multi year properties its reputation flows down to influence people who should not consider it. A smooth and thin (less weight)bottom is the most efficient bottom and whether you are a "racer", a "green peace" sailor or anywhere else on the continuum it only makes sense to have an energy efficient bottom. Some people have never felt VC 17 and think they have a smooth bottom on their boat, they don't. If you want to feel VC 17 do what you probably used to do in grade school; take a piece of paper out of your printer, take a number 2 pencil, hold it so the side of the lead is on the paper, now shade in a 3"x4" area nice and heavy. Go back now with your clean finger pad and rub the lead into the paper until it is shines, now feel that surface. That is VC 17 on your bottom, nothing else comes close. What is the down side? Money. I use 4 quarts per season, after shipping it is about $200 per season. Up side? Ease of application. It takes no respirators to use, just a small roller, no tarps under the boat, just a hose and a sponge to prep. I will prep and paint my boat in under an hour this spring and have the best freshwater anti-slime protection I have seen, then in the fall I will powerwash the hull and be done with it until I use the sponge the following spring. That is 10 minutes with a powerwasher in the fall and under an hour in the spring for the best bottom possible.
The caveat, if you sail in waters where the formulation of VC 17 does not out perform or at least come close to other paints then you need to focus on anti-fouling and choose based on that, for those of use in freshwater where VC 17m with Biolux matches or out performs other paints it is the right choice.

P.S. No it does not build up to the point of needing to be removed. I shudder to think how much weight people are dragging around on their hulls after several cycles of over-laying ablatives.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2007 : 13:21:17

No offence taken Frank but I don't understand the excess weight that I'm supposed to be dragging around. Five years ago I put on 3/4 coats of CCP and it's still ablating and doing exceedingly well. "All that weight", might equate to a dozen cans of beer, if that. As for smooth bottoms, well its as smooth as the barrier coats beneath it, not as smooth as gel coat, but who cares, it beats the crapola that I inherited from the previous owner who dutifully applied a new bottom coat every spring, and what had the appearence of a pineapple not to mention the weight. Sandblasting that mess and going ablative was a stroke of genious.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2007 : 16:30:30

I used CCP Plus (actually a Petit ablative paint with their anti-slime additive) and found that if I thinned it with the appropriate thinner, I got a smoother, almost shiny bottom. (That's not counting the craters in the underlying hard paint that I hadn't removed.) It might not be as slick as VC17, but it was very good at preventing growth in the relatively high-fouling water at my slip. Interlux seems to suggest that VC-17 won't do the job.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2007 : 18:01:03

Frank,

How many coats do you get with 4 quarts of VC?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2007 : 20:34:40

2 and a little extra around the waterline. Honestly I think a person could do it with 3.

Edited by - on

DanM
Captain

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USA
256 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2007 : 07:01:32

I used 3 quarts of VC last spring, 4 would have done better. It was 2 years since the PO had done it, so the coverage was rather thin. Still, it kept the slime away. Will do it again this spring. It's as easy as Frank says. Don't forget the rudder, and mask off the depth sounder and speed wheel. Don't load the roller, especially light touch along the masking taped waterline to avoid bleeding under the tape.
I believe the directions say to wear a respirator and Tyvek coveralls to avoid getting any of the copper dust in your lungs. When you are spending that cash, why not throw in the equivalent of the sales tax for personal protective gear?

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2007 : 07:51:05

Hey Frank
Thanks for all of your continued good advice on VC-17. A new bottom coat with it is definitely on my list of things to do this summer

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2007 : 04:35:19

Thanks all. Still lots of time to get organized before spring arrives. Frank's right in that we spent far too much on preping and painting the bottom of our former C22...although it paid off in that we readily sold our boat when it was time to trade up. Moreover, I noticed last fall when preping our boat for winter that of the 7 C25/27's in our storage yard, most have VC17 bottoms and I doubt but a few are racers.

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pegasus
1st Mate

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USA
65 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 12:41:19

My boat stays in the warm (South Carolina) fresh water year-round. The bottom has a thin film of slime on her, but nothing that won't easily scrub off with a rag/brush while away from the dock on a calm summer afternoon. I have ablative paint on my hull and a few blisters. I just bought the boat last year and plan to haul her this spring/summer to let her dry out, patch the bnlisters and look at a barrier coat. So, what's the concensus on what I should put on her hull? She's a 1986 fin keel.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 15:38:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pegasus
 So, what's the concensus on what I should put on her hull? She's a 1986 fin keel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think the consensus is that there is no consensus. It's whatever works best for your locale and how you use your boat.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2007 : 23:39:36

I am storing dry on the trailer initially, but I am putting Pearl in the Gulf for a month in 2 days. Consequently, I bottom painted with CPP last month. Ablatives retain there effectiveness with intermittent dunkings. Prep - wash with soap and water ( it is ablative). Smooth? - Not even close. Does it matter to me? - Not as much as effectiveness and ease of use and cost. I don't have a schedule or a racing mark to meet; I enjoy the process and a half a knot doesn't register in my style of sailing.

There are many bottom paints and no single answer for everyone. We all have a right to our opinions, and we form those opinions by blending factual data, experience, and personal values. Spend some bucks (a lot fewer than a gallon of any bottom paint) on a subscription to Practical Sailor - they do long term testing of many things and will be doing a freshwater bottom coat test in the future. CPP was a best buy for marine application. It wouldn't be much good for you because it doesn't have a slime additive. P/S also compared the effectiveness of different slime additives. They also caution, and report from their different test sites, that what works here doesn't necessarily work there. Ask what others in your marina use and look at their bottoms. Boat bottoms only! Many people here seem to really like VC 17 in a variety of locatins, but you must supplement that support with local research.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 06:50:30

Depending on the duration of the "intermittant dunkings" just about anything will work. Most of the drysail spots at our club(j-24's, J22, Highlanders etc) use nothing. Obviously if you are in the water for a long time you need a decent bottompaint for zebra mussels, barnacles and the like. Also, if the PO had a bottom paint on you'll want to repaint it. If I had a 250 out of the box factory direct that I would just daysail and put back on the trailer I'd probably go without bottom paint.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 08:31:48

Dave, I agree with your overall summation but as I always will I need to speak my opinion of PS. I have seldom if ever agreed with their recommendations, I really do not respect them as an authority. I think a sailor is far better served by asking their local sailors what works for them and asking people on this forum from similar venues what works for them.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/31/2007 : 08:35:06

Dave5041,
Thanks for pointing me towards the PS article. I have limited bottom paint experience and learned a lot. I'm in Daytona Beach and without trailer. I think next fall I'll go with either the Sea Hawk Mission Bay CSF or the Pettit Hydrocoat depending on wallet size:) Dave

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 10:43:36

Anyone use VC-17m in salt water and have it hold up for a year? WM CPP is now manufactured by Interlux. I found this out last year after I used it on PennyII. The problem was I put it on in April, sailed an won my division in the Mug Race in May and then in June our fleet took a cruise and I could not keep up with anyone. The reason was the bottom was loaded with hair and barnacles. I did contact WM and they had the Interlux Rep. call me. The net result was there was a problem with the initial batch. Interlux replaced the paint and WM paid to have the boat hauled and redone at my leisure. There in my question about VC-17m since PennyII lives in brackish water year round.

Edited by - on

existentialsailor
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1180 Posts

Response Posted - 02/01/2007 : 15:00:16

Frog,

I used "VC17m Extra" last year. My boat isn't in what I call brackish water even though there are quite a few rivers that feed into Casco Bay, there is so much saltwater carried in by the currents that it is pretty salty. I thought it worked well. I got a few barnacles on the depth sounder a couple of other places where the barrier coat got exposed due to the boat "hobby horsing" on the mooring. The water stays pretty cold in Maine, but towards the end of the season, it warms up a bit and I got some minor growth. I never cleaned the bottom the whole season, so I think that would help. I don't think it's necessarily the best choice for salt water, but when you look at the whole picture including ease of application and total cost, it's a reasonable choice. I would definitely not use it if your boat sits for long periods unused. YMMV

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