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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Battery charger recommendation needed

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/09/2007 : 07:50:39

I've got a little (6 amp?) battery charger that takes 24 hours to charge my battery. I'd like to get something faster. Recommendations?

BTW, the last time I charged the battery, I could see bubbles rising in the battery acid. Is that normal?

Bruce Baker
Falls Church, VA
"Yee Ha" 3573
'83SR/SK

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2007 : 08:34:26

If you plan on running 12v utilities on the boat while charging, then I do not recommend GUEST chargers (pretty sure ours blew when we ran a fan while charging.)

Paul

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2007 : 08:35:41

Charles makes real "marine UL" chargers. I have one and am very happy with it, I was pleased with my old Guest as well.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2007 : 09:05:35

I've read some strong recommendations for Xantrex on some forum somewhere... The net is you probably get what you pay for.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2007 : 13:47:51

I have the Xantrex 10 and am happy with it. It is a smart charger that knows how to best care for the batteries. It also allows you to run 12v items while charging.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2007 : 16:34:27

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/185/p/1/pt/7/product.asp

http://www.charlesindustries.com/main/ma_batchcch_ad2.html

I think the Charles run about $100 more.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2007 : 13:57:42

Bruce, I enter what follows, not as a recommendation to you, but meerly as a statement as to what works for me. I use a Craftman 6/12 volt, 2/10 amp smart charger with engine start mode, recommended for use with deep cycle batteries. I use it at home to maintain various cars, tractors, and autos, plus an occasional spell as a boat battery shot in the arm. The boat relies on the charging system provided by the OB's alternator which by and large handles it all.

Val on CALISTA # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2007 : 07:14:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bruce Baker ...I'd like to get something faster. Recommendations? BTW, the last time I charged the battery, I could see bubbles rising in the battery acid. Is that normal?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Bruce,

Bubbling electrolyte doesn't sound like a good thing, expecially if accompanied by high battery temperature. It seems like that's almost got to lead to electrolyte loss, but I'm no expert.

I use a permanently installed Xantrex Truecharge 20 Plus Battery Charger. I winced at the price, even on sale. (I also got the optional remote readout and temperature pickup.) Ten years later, the performance is still flawless. And it's fast. Smart chargers are particularly good at cramming a charge into batteries as fast as possible without damaging them, and at maintaining full charge over time without over charging.

-- Leon S.

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2007 : 11:40:00

Yes. Lead Acid batteries bubble when taking a high amperage....a little. Too much is bad. BTW it's hydrogen....no smoking Elmer. An AGM battery takes care of that problem, and of the maintenance.

I had a Guest, sealed, no buttons charger. Worked like a charm, even when running a load. (Sounds like an anomalie for you, Brit-in -the colonies

)

Xantrex is good....very good.

Whatever you get, make sure its quality. If you cycle your battery regularly, as in charge and then go sailing for a day with lights, autopilot, gps etc. running, a quality charger will 1:Provide you with a fuller battery, 2:Extend the life of your battery by year$.....

The Xantrex web-site has quite a bit of education. Look under support.

Edited by - Oscar on 05/13/2007 11:48:40

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2007 : 23:05:49

"(6 amp?) takes 24 hours to charge my battery. I'd like to get something faster?"

Simple answer. Certainly. An 18 amp charger will charge that battery overnight... but, there's a catch.
Too fast a charge rate relative to battery capacity and design can produce problems such as excess heat, plate warpage, and excessive hydrogen gassing (boilout).

In a nutshell, charging rate and duration should be matched to battery type and battery capacity.

There are two basic battery types found in most boats.

Starting batteries (automotive battery) = Designed for short duration, high discharge and high recharge rates.
Deep cycle batteries (RV, Marine, Golf Cart) = Designed for long duration low/moderate discharge and recharge rates.

A high recharge rate into a deep cycle battery is bad. (Designed for long duration, low current charge and discharge cycles)
A high recharge rate for a starting battery is ok, but not for a long duration. (They don't like to deep cycle).

If you are discharging too much of your battery capacity and requiring a sustained, high-charge rate (relative to battery amp-hours and type) you will be diminishing the battery life.

This used to be a lot bigger problem until modern electronics came along. Most 'smart chargers' will have different settings for battery type and will limit their charge rates and tapers according to the setting selected.

This brings us to the heart of the matter. If you are discharging too deeply and/or attempting to recharge too quickly, the situation will not be good for battery life. The 'right' answer might be that you need both more battery capacity and a higher rate smart charger to meet your needs.

There are books written on this subject... 'The 12 Volt Bible' is one of the standards. As was mentioned above, the web also has some good information on batteries and charging.

Back to the original question. What charger to buy? In this area I'm a bit of a contrarian. My thinking is that buying a $200 charger for a $40 battery doesn't make a lot of sense. I've run a $25 marine 'smart marine' charger from Shumacher (sp?) for three years now without problems.

Is it the best setup? No, not by a long shot. Is it adequate for my bay, lake and coastal use? Yes. Would I spend $500 on a battery charger if I had a serious cruising boat with $2,000 worth of batteries and was really depending on them? You betcha.

Just my 2 cts.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2007 : 13:36:12

Xantrex has been the one rated highest by our C34 group.

Rather than repeat a lot of what's been written, download and read the Ample Power Primer at www.amplepower.com. Explains charging and what batteries need.

The Charles chargers, while still being installed by Catalina, are, IMHO, not half as good as the Xantrex.

See: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=605.0

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 05/15/2007 13:36:50

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2007 : 14:20:22

Stu, have you read this link?
http://www.charlesindustries.com/main/ma_batchcch_ad2.html
or this one?
http://www.charlesindustries.com/main/about_ci.html

My charger not only works perfectly but is manufactured to a very high standard. The Battery selector switch allows charger to be used with lead acid, gel, or AGM batteries.
The Xantrex appears to be a good product by a good company as well. Their switch provides Settings for flooded or gel lead-acid batteries.
In reference to the C34 thread/anti Charles jihad

I wonder what Catalina spec'd to Charles. As for Ferroresonant chargers... better technology replaced them.
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/Batterychg.pdf

edit:
I bought my charger Fall of 05, I placed it under my quaterberth because it runs so cool. It has run virtually 24/7 except for the travel time to and from my lake. I have never looked at it nor my batteries since I installed it. It is probably inappropriate for me to recommend it considering I have never checked it so I will have a look at everything this weekend.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 05/15/2007 14:37:17

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2007 : 14:40:51

Regular versus Valve-Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) Batteries
Battery Containers come in several different configurations. Flooded Batteries can be either the sealed or open variety.

* Sealed Flooded Cells are frequently found as starter batteries in cars. Their electrolyte cannot be replenished. When enough electrolyte has evaporated due to charging, age, or just ambient heat, the battery has to be replaced.
* Deep-Cycle Flooded cells usually have removable caps that allow you to replace any electrolyte that has evaporated over time. Take care not to contaminate the electrolyte - wipe the exterior container while rinsing the towel frequently.

VRLA batteries remain under constant pressure of 1-4 psi. This pressure helps the recombination process under which 99+% of the Hydrogen and Oxygen generated during charging are turned back into water. The two most common VRLA batteries used today are the Gel and Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM) variety.

* Gel batteries feature an electrolyte that has been immobilized using a gelling agent like fumed silica.
* AGM batteries feature a thin fiberglass felt that holds the electrolyte in place like a sponge.

Neither AGM or Gel cells will leak if inverted, pierced, etc. and will continue to operate even under water.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2007 : 09:17:53

OK so it took me almost two months to check my batteries, after almost two years on the Charles charger with a very low 12 volt usage on my boat I found that my batteries needed water. Both batteries took .5 liters of water and all cells needed an equal amount of water. It looked to me like the water was just above the plates, several cells seemed to have a gray scum on the water but it went away when filled. I have no idea what this means but I am disappointed that they needed any water at all, it makes me wonder if the float mode on the Charles charger runs too hot.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2007 : 09:49:16

Frank,
I believe some electrolyte loss is expected when using a constantly connected charger. I check mine about every three months and they usually need a 1/2" or so of water per cell. Always make sure to use "distilled" water when refilling a battery. Even bottled drinking water will take its toll due to the hard chemicals inherent in non-distilled water. I have an old sealed Guest Charger, much like Oscar's I'm sure, which is extremely reliable and has no problem with running devices while charging. I emailed Guest and they confirmed Paul's assertion that the cheaper Guest chargers will not handle a load while charging. I would expect the newer chargers have SCR (Silicon Controlled Rectifier)technology while the older chargers are transistorized . SCR technology allows better charging control but probably at the expense of durability.

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2007 : 16:04:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This brings us to the heart of the matter. If you are discharging too deeply and/or attempting to recharge too quickly, the situation will not be good for battery life. The 'right' answer might be that you need both more battery capacity and a higher rate smart charger to meet your needs. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Rule of thumb is to not discharge a battery (bank) over 50% of it's capacity, and to charge it at no more than 15%.... So if you have two 100Ah batteries, you can draw 100A, then put in 30A. (in the bulk state of charging)

(The above capacity refers to a deep cycle battery, not the cranking amps of a start battery.)

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