Association Forum - Catalina 25 Swing or Wing Keel for Trailering?

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Catalina 25 Swing or Wing Keel for Trailering?

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Wind of Freedom
Deckhand

Member Avatar

USA
4 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/30/2007 : 07:21:06

We are looking into purchasing our first larger sailboat - a Catalina 25. After much consideration, we feel the Catalina 22 is just too small for a family of 5 with 3 young kids and the only sailing will be offshore on the Atlantic here in Jupiter, Florida. We want to trailer the boat, but can't afford the newer (mid-1990's) water ballasted Catalina's. Therefore, it's between the Swing Keel or Winged Keel option in the mid-1980's range. Which is better for trailering every now and then? We want to save the $250 per month cost of slip fees. We would like to trailer it to our ramp for weekend sailing. Is the wing keeled 25 displacement weight less then the swing keel? How much harder is the wing keeled to put on / off the trailer then the swing keel? I would expect to get a trailer extension for the wing keel if I go that route.

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 08:01:16

As a former Swing Keel owner, I'd go with that. The rest depends on your ram angle. If it is really shallow, you might have to go out pretty far just to get a wing keel to float. Cheers.

Edited by - on

atgep
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

1009 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 08:04:59

You will find the wing and swing need nearly the same depth to launch. You will need some kind of tounge extension to get the trailer deep enough to float on and off. Forget about doing this at low tide.

I would caution you that trailering something this big is not for the faint of heart. Expect 2-3 hours for launch the same for recovery. I would describe the boat as "transportable" and not really trailerable.

My suggestion is you look for another boat. A Hunter 23.5 or 24 would provide a lot more room than a Cat 22 and seem to be decent boats. There are quite a few in the 23-24 foot range that are a LOT easier to setup and launch.

MY 2c, Tom.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 08:33:42

I keep a wing keel in a slip at Daytona Beach. The swing is to much maintenance in salt water and if you want to really use your boat it needs to be easily accessible. Good luck!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 09:00:54

Hi Douglas and Peggy... I posted on your Tow Vehicle thread before I read this one. Tom and I are thinking the same thing--that you'll be disappointed at how much effort you have to put in setting up for a day of sailing, and taking down when it's over.

The C-25 wing draws only a couple of inches more than the swing--it was introduced to replace the swing for trailering, shoal draft, and salt water. Generally, it's only found in model years starting around 1986 (except for some retrofits), and especially the 1988-90 models, which command somewhat higher prices. It's a fine boat for your venue, but I worry it'll turn out to be the wrong boat for you.

Also, from experience, I wouldn't overestimate the amount of time your three little ones are going to want to spend on a boat sailing up and down off Jupiter Island... It's wonderful decompression for us old folks, but.......

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 09:19:05

"Expect 2-3 hours for launch the same for recovery. I would describe the boat as "transportable" and not really trailerable."

'Transportable' is a good description.

My experience is that 2 competent, physically fit and experienced people working as a team can have a C25 in the water in about 45 minutes. This means moving briskly, dividing tasks and having everything very well prepared. Once in the water, there's another 15 minutes of effort to get the sails hanked on, sheets set, etc.

This sort of time requires a 'well-oiled machine' sort of thing which comes after lots of launches and recoveries. If you're missing any of the criteria listed above, the launch time goes way up. My regular launch-buddy and I are both in our mid-50's now and over the last 5 years we've lost quite a few steps in the hustle department... our launch time is now up to 1-1/2 hours (I guess the upside of aging is that we don't really care anymore).

If you're using a busy ramp with lots of people milling around asking you questions about your boat, double your launch and recovery time! :>) "Is that a sailboat?" "How big is it?" "How tall is that mast?" etc etc...

The biggest problem I see with your plan is that unless you have a galvanized or marine aluminum trailer with disc brakes (very rare and expensive for a C-25), frequent saltwater launching will eat it alive despite your best efforts to prevent it especially in a 'tropical' environment like Florida.

Based on your needs, I suggest you take a look at a MacGregor 26 'Classic' Model. Water ballasted, easily rigged, reasonably decent interior volume, and sails fairly well. Available everywhere for around $8K. A nice feature for Florida is that it has a a kick-up rudder and centerboard so you can go in really shallow water with it.

It's also unlikely you will find a Mac with a galvanized trailer, but due to the light weight of the boat, it doesn't require as big or expensive a trailer as the C25... so you could probably treat the factory trailer as 'expendable'.

The newest 26 'M' model would also work, but as a 'motorsailor' they are a compromise boat so they don't sail as well as a pure sailboat. However, for a family, they do have really nice amenities for the length and the new M model doesn't look that bad. Downside is that they are still new and demand more money on the market.

Please stay away from the first generation MacGregor motorsailor, the 26X... an ugly boat (pure IMHO). Life is too short for ugly boats.

Final parting advice... if you have the boat in a slip, you will use it at least 5X more often than if you are launching and retrieving. Even the easily launched trailersailors above 20' get to be a drudge on the ramp and you'll start finding other things to do. If you really want to enjoy the boat find the extra money for the slip, especially in the first year of ownership.

Edited by - ClamBeach on 05/30/2007 09:19:56

megrier
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 09:27:05

I want to chime in on the time involved in setup and tear down. Most of us made our own systems for stepping and un-stepping the mast. It takes me at least an hour just to get ready to raise the mast with a gin pole type system. It is always scary for the girl friend and makes me quite anxious at times. So, I have started doing the set up with my son in stead of the girl freind. Then after getting the mast up it is at least another hour and a half to get the boat in the water. So I would say 2 1/2 to 3 hours to setup and another 2 1/2 to 3 hours to tear down.

Once your in the water it is all worth it! But I would not want to do all that work for a day sail.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 09:35:41

Given a choice the wing is the only option, the reasons go on and on. A couple biggies are lead not cast iron, no maintenance verses annual inspections with periodic scary maintenance. The incredible hassle of living with a swing (up-down, up-down, ad infinitum) and crawling around the attendant components inside the boat. Trying to keep paint on corroding cast iron is a nightmare. I have owned both and there is no comparison, just the increase in maneuverability of the wing over a raised swing is enough to drive the decision. "Swingers" love their boats and they should but the wing changed everything.
If you are drysailing (stored with the mast up a hundred yards from the ramp) then a 25 is great, The wing is no harder to launch, in fact, with its improved maneuverability I would guess it is easier to get on a trailer and you don't need to worry about remembering to let the keel down before you leave. Trailering a 25 with 3 small kids is probably a bad idea, use the money and charter.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 09:58:47

I recently went through this same question. Wing or swing? I decided that the swing might be easier to pull and launch but will require more maintenance. I understand that problem is increased in salt water, although that's not an issue for us. Without adequate maintenance of the swinger, catastrophic failure could be the consequence. By catastrophic I mean the boat sitting on the bottom of whatever body of water it is in. Quickly! I'm not very mechanically inclined so, I decided that a swinger would cost me more since I would have to pay for the necessary maintenance that so many of the guys on this forum are able to do themselves. My marina is at $70/hr for labor rates. This rationale lead me to decide on a fixed keel rather than a swinger.

We also looked at the older versus newer question. We decided that the relative higher cost of the newer model would be balanced by the (hopefully) lower maintenance costs that the later year version would require.

We also looked at the trailer-sailor versus wet slip question. As others have said, rigging the boat is rather involved and isn't simply a matter of pulling up to the ramp and putting up the stick. We decided that being able to sail soon after arrival at the water was important to us. I can't imagine how many times my 8 year old would say (whine) "I'm bored" while waiting for me to rig the boat. The estimates I've read on this forum lead me to think that over an hour is not unreasonable time to expect the rigging/launching to consume. The last time out we were sailing within 30 minutes of arrival at the boat. That included the time it took to motor out of the marina.

Finally came the question of tow vehicle. Based on your other post, you probably don't really have an adequate tow vehicle for easy launching, retrieval and transporting. We didn't either. So the cost of obtaining a larger tow vehicle entered the equation. That, combined with rigging time and launching hassles, made it easy to decide on wet slipping the boat. Admittedly, the cost of our slip is far less than the cost you mentioned.

It occurred to me that your question about weight hasn't been answered. The swing and the wing weigh roughly the same. Remember, it is a swing KEEL, not a centerboard. I seem to recall that it (the keel) weighs around 1500lbs(???) The advantage of the swing isn't in the weight but rather in the relative towing/launching height.

We probably couldn't/can't really afford the boat we bought but we're happy we bought it. What tipped the scale for us was a bumper sticker I saw in the parking lot of the social services agency I work at. It said: "Don't Postpone Joy". Truer words have never been spoken.

That's my nickel's worth regarding our decision processes. Hope it helps.

Edited by - John Russell on 05/30/2007 11:03:43

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 10:06:25

You know, this is an interesting thread! This is a group of proud owners who are passionate about their boats (even though we move on to others from time to time). For what it is, the C-25 is perhaps the best value ever built by anybody--a stout, seaworthy, comfortable, reasonably fast, "transportable" coastal cruiser that doesn't look bad, either. But it has its limitations, as do all boats. It's great to see these passionate owners candidly warning a prospective buyer about unrealistic expectations.

Douglas and Peggy: We just want you to enjoy sailing. I hope you're taking all of this in the spirit in which it is intended.

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

Members Avatar

Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 10:42:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by megrier
 I want to chime in on the time involved in setup and tear down. Most of us made our own systems for stepping and un-stepping the mast. It takes me at least an hour just to get ready to raise the mast with a gin pole type system. It is always scary for the girl friend and makes me quite anxious at times. So, I have started doing the set up with my son in stead of the girl freind. Then after getting the mast up it is at least another hour and a half to get the boat in the water. So I would say 2 1/2 to 3 hours to setup and another 2 1/2 to 3 hours to tear down.

Once your in the water it is all worth it! But I would not want to do all that work for a day sail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So True!
I would gladly pay $250 a month to avoid towing, launching, raising the mast, tuning the rig and all the other little necessities that need to be done before sailing, TWICE in one weekend

.
It's a lot of work especially if you only have your wife and kids to help and by the time it's done no one is still in the mood for sailing anyway.

Edited by - on

Wind of Freedom
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 10:43:17

Thank you all for your careful, thoughtful advice ... most definitely appreciated! It really helps to hear all your experiences, considerations and conclusions. We have much to think about, weigh and pray about

We have been power boaters/scuba divers for many years, but also love sailing, taken classes and rented a 40' catamaran that we sailed with a group on a wonderful trip to Bimini. We also have a little Puffer that we have outgrown.

We feel confident we are up to the challenge of owning a sailboat, but these are the practical kinds of experiences/considerations that we need to know. Especially now that we have 3 kids! They are 9, 7 & 5 - still young enough to be easily bored, but old enough to be learning, helping and hopefully growing to love it.

ClamBeach, so you think the MacGregor 26 would be easier to handle and easier to trailer, even though it is a foot longer? That sounds like a great option.

Obviously, docking at a slip sounds wonderfully appealing! But we will have to find out exact cost for our area, and see what the budget says. What about leaving it on the hook (assuming that is still possible these days) and getting a dingy? Any experience/advice on that?

You all have been terrific, and I look forward to hearing more .... thanks again!

-Peg

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 12:30:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Wind of Freedom Ministry
 What about leaving it on the hook (assuming that is still possible these days) and getting a dingy?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Rather than "on the hook" (using your own anchor), I'd suggest looking into fees for moorings--they are generally a lot more economical than a slip. Look for a place where you can come into a dock for loading/unloading, washdown, etc. You might even find a reasonable place with launch service, which might be better than five people in a dinghy.

Also look into "dry slips". You can call the marina and tell them when you're arriving, they drop the boat in for you, you step aboard and go sailing, and then they lift it out when you're done for the day. It's more common for powerboats that can be stored in a multi-level rack, but who knows?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/30/2007 16:47:15

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 19:04:59

Once again I agree with Frank. (We Franks are well known for our wisdom)

The wing is the way to go, if you can find one. Especially in a salt water environment. Having owned a Catalina 22 swing before my 25 wing I appreciate the lead wing even more. I also trailer my boat to the Keys once a year. Rigging and derigging is a hassle. If you have a furler it adds to the hassle factor greatly.
I understand that 250 bucks a month for a person with 3 small kids is a lot of money, expecially if you consider that you have to earn 350 to 400 bucks before taxes.

I wouldn't consider using a 25 for day trips if I had to rig/derig every day.
I had an all aluminum and stainless steel trailer made in florida for my boat. I also custom made keel guides for it too, and a tongue extension. I wouldn't recommend my manufacturer as they were idiots, and caused me lots of extra work. But now I have it set up to travel 1000 miles one way going the speed limit on the turnpike with no trouble.
I have been looking at Ericson 32's lately and would consider selling my boat and trailer if I do. But that would be next year at the earliest.
How about a Corsair 24? They are really fast, trailerable,and only cost about 50 grand used

As much as I don't like Hunter sailboats they have a nifty mast raising system for folks who must day sail and trailer.
Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Edited by - on

Ben - FL
Admiral

Members Avatar

880 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 19:41:00

Wish I could be in Jupiter again. Y'all have fantastic SCUBA diving there!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 22:01:06

>"ClamBeach, so you think the MacGregor 26 would be easier to handle and easier to trailer, even though it is a foot longer?"

I spent quite a bit of time sailing on a M26 Classic and have rigged and retrieved them many times.

All boats are compromises in one form or another. The M26 C was optimized to give the biggest sailboat package available that would also provide for easily trailering behind a 'regular' vehicle and ease of launching. It's water-ballasted hull and lightweight centerboard configuration let it sit very low 'in' the trailer. A friend who owns one tows his pretty easily with a V-6 Ford Ranger. MacGregor thoughtfully configured the rig with a couple temporary side stays that keep the mast from swinging side to side when raising it. This coupled with the lower deck height makes the launch and rig process pretty easy. The cockpit is large and pretty comfortable. A kick up rudder and centerboard make for a draft in inches.

Ok that's all the good stuff. Optimizing for easy trailering does have its downside.

The Mac 26 classic doesn't have the headroom, interior volume or the 'traditional look and feel' of a 'real' cruising sailboat (Which the Catalina 25 does). The galley counter height is very low so cooking is not a stand up process. In terms of overall build, the Catalina 25 is IMHO more seaworthy than the Mac with a stronger rudder and keel setup.

All that said, the 26C does perform pretty well on the water and is generally well mannered with the exception of a tendency to broach downwind with the mainsail up and a following sea. I always felt pretty comfortable in it for coastal and bay use. All in all 'handling' in the water is a bit different from the Catalina. The M26 sails much like a big dinghy and goes to higher angles of heel before the water ballasting kicks in... we would sail at 30 degrees of heel a lot of the time. If you get used to 'throwing it around' it's quite a lot of fun.

The C25 on the other hand, has the mass to give the feel of a bigger keelboat and a better sense of form stability. It is happiest if you keep it under 20 degrees of heel.

So which is the right boat for you? Dunno.

IMHO stuff: If you can get a slip or mooring, the C25 wins hands down. If you are in a true 'trailersailor' mode, the Mac 26C get's the nod for ease of trailering and setup.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/30/2007 : 22:29:13

Can a new C250 WB owner chime in?

I would love to have JD ready to drag to the ramp from the staging area within 45 minutes of arriving at the marina. Sadly, it's mostly nearer to 1&1/2hours but that does include hoisting the jib and furling it in, attaching the boom and mainsail to the mast, setting all the running rigging and the GPS, and connecting the mast to the boat electrics (wind, lights, vhf antenna)

Why so long? Mainly because we actually don't rush any more, take it easy, reduce the sweat, check all lines before raising anything.

We have a rule: Don't do it around noon in south florida! And we drink about 1/2 gallon of water in the process, wear SPF 50+ sunscreen, and shades.

Raising the mast is just another baby step process.

We do load all the gear in the boat before we leave home, saves a dozen trips from the truck to the transom.

My guess is that the C25 is about the same, as mentioned by an earlier post, it's a matter of teamwork.

All that said, we originally towed JD with a 10 year old chevy blazer 2 door SUV, we saw the light after 5 months, poor thing was not up to the task so we invested in a F150 4x4, the cost of that is pretty much more than a slip if we could find one, but the flexibility we have by being able to trail the boat all over is worth the price. I keep trying to convince myself that the annual cost of the boat maintainence trips I would have to make to a slip and the hauling out at the first sign of a hurricane makes the truck a good investment
Sure is nice to drive!

So far the flex has allowed us to sail in Biscayne Bay, The keys (Pennekamp and Long Key) Cocoa beach and next week all the way over in Pensacola.

Generally we try to get out each month for 4 or 5 nights. that makes the effort of preping and derigging the boat worth it.... Really worth it!

As mentioned, we're a passionate bunch.

Paul

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.