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Admiralty Forum

Bleeding the line

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/09/2007 : 18:47:37

We were out last wednesday and one of the O rings on the primary fuel filter went bad.

At least it sort of went bad - I think we might have incorrectly put the O-ring in and it just shifted to a point where it all started to suck air.

Or the fuel pump is shot - however I spent a good part of the afternoon bleeding/trying to bleed the lines. I learned a lot, got really dirty but in the end was not successful.

The pro's from dover (knaggs marine) are taking a look at it on Tuesday and we have a list of upgrades we want to have done so we will see how it goes...Welcome to the world of 75 bucks an hour.

Any thoughts on how to check the fuel pump without making a mess?

D. Wolff
DPO C25 Hull 401
Currently Sailing "Champagne and Ripple" 1982 O'day 30

Chief Measurer 2002-2006
Vice-commodore 2007

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2007 : 00:28:25

Take the fuel line to the injectors off, stick it in a bucket, turn on the fuel pump.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 10:24:54

I believe fuel injectors require pretty precise pressure to operate properly. You may need to attach a gauge and measure that pressure. Stu's method will confirm if the pump is dead

however.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 11:47:25

At this point I am deferring to the local $75/hour guys that everybody around here uses. We played around with it this weekend to no avail. I'm too new to this at this point and want to get it done correctly and watch it be done correctly. Hopefully I'll be able to get off work to be down there when they do it. If not they know where the boat is.

There are some things that I'm not inclined or qualified to do so starting a relationship with them on something simple that I can also learn from will be a good experience. Over the next 3 years the Surveyor suggested replacing or upgrading various items some simple, some a bit more complex, so being on the customer list can't hurt.

Along the same vein, I spent a lot of time looking for a replacement O-ring this weekend only to find out there is one in the box with the new filter, you just have to dig to find it. At any rate I found a quality diesel parts place that I can get filters, hoses and the like on my own at a very reasonable price without ordering from out of town.

It is all a new education for me (and Harvey) - The fact that you can't just take it off the transom anymore, buy a 12 pack and go over to Pete's basement for repair and maintenance is an entirely new feeling. I like that in some respects, dislike it in others.

Tons more replacement parts to carry as well.

This is the engine project list for the next 2 years:

New Fuel Pump (if my instincts are correct)
New Water Pump
Primary filter
Throttle Cable and
Raw water strainer (never had one before)

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 14:20:50

Hey Duane,
there are links from the "old" C36 website to the Universal diesel shop manual for the M21 and M25 if I remember correctly. Of course I'm just guessing what engine you have.
I'll need to take some diesel classes myself.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 15:28:32

actually its a 5416 which was changed to a M-20. Thanks for the links - I have all that stuff - most of it original. I haven't heard from those guys yet - I'm guessing they will make it down there tomorrow.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 15:31:34

Duane

Fuel Pump - save big bucks, I'm thinking $34 sounds a lot better than $130?

See: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2515.0

For both you and Frank (hopefully) there's lotsa mystery out there that we and the C36 guys have already solved, and would be more than glad to help.

Also try this as reference source to let you knwo that lot's of the questions you're about to ask have been recorded, documented and saved so that you don't have to reinvent the wheel (unless you still want to keep those square tires!).

http://www.c34.org/tech-notes-index/technotes-excel.xls

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 18:41:45

Lets toss out one more question - the original fiberglass wrap on the exhaust. Has anyone swithced that out to a dry exhaust wrap and switched the original black pipe to stainless?

Thanks for the links - the pump looks interesting - I'm waiting to see what the guy says - he hasn't called by now so I'm thinking that they will get down there tomorrow. The pump can very well still be okay...

dw

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2007 : 20:38:34

Duane, one of things you'll find, or you probably already know, is that the phrase "has anybody ever..." will usually elicit an: "of, course," and "which of the ten (3, 6, 89,?) ways would you like to know about?"

Here's an article I wrote that I found by checking that Knowledgebase I mentioned earlier. I don't have the pictures that go with it, but I'll try to email one or two to you from the board (I don't have an online web thing to post pictures). If you get them and can post them it'd be great, if you're interested in doing that.

I also don't want to, or intend to, overburden this message board with a "we did it, we did it" attitude, but I sure can help point you in the right direction for material that we've "saved" for over the past 20 years about our boats which share so many systems and engines with ones you folks are moving up to. This Admiralty Forum is a good start. Humbly, I submit that those of you who may be, or are, interested in the mechanics of the stuff we with other boats have to maintain, spend some time over at our site or th C36 site, both of which have a tremendous amount of information, and are fully searchable.

When I started 9 years ago with "Aquavite" I had just a small amount of the information now available, but what was there was a tremendous help (most of it was the early FAQs at http://www.c34.org/faq-pages/faq.html. We greatly expanded that after 1998, but I printed them out and/or read them and that was a great start.

Dry exhausts with an engine under the waterline doesn't seem to be too good an idea, plus it's nosier. I'm not sure where the wet exhaust would go, but I have Calder's Boatowner's Manual for Mechanical and Electrical Systems book, which is THE book to buy if you're moving to a larger vessel or craft - it's the best $50 you can spend on your boat. The 2nd edition si actually better than the new 3rd edition. Could find it on e-bay or in a bookstore for less than the new one.

Many have swapped out the old fiberglass mufflers to Vetus mufflers.

Many others have replaced their risers with an assortment of different materials: Schedule 80 pipe, galvanized, you name it someone's used it.

BTW, this is the ONLY time I EVER had anyone work on my boat - some of the stuff he did I had to redo. Bummer...

Below that is a note from one of members that is self expanatory.

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#65279;Exhaust Riser Replacement
On Saturday, August 16, 2003, I had just completed an early sail across the eastern end of San Francisco Bay, and had sailed south of the Bay Bridge toward Pac Bell Park and a Giants baseball game. The wind died south of the bridge, so I was motor sailing with the engine at idle speed. I smelled diesel exhaust and looked around for a motorboat or ferryboat that had passed by upwind. There was none. But there was a huge brown black mass of exhaust coming at me from the cabin! I immediately cut the engine, set the sails and the
autopilot to head upwind in the very light air, and went below to open up all the hatches and ports.

Inspection confirmed my initial idea that the exhaust riser had separated, right above the water injection nipple. Of course, I’d been “meaning” to make this a replacement for this year, but failure caught up to me first.

A year or so ago Dave Davis had sent me copies of the exhaust riser drawings he had received from Catalina Yachts. One showed the old five piece black iron assembly, and the other showed the new improved stainless steel model.

I called Catalina, and they fabricated the new exhaust riser for me and I had it in hand within two weeks ($165). In the meantime, I had done research on obtaining professional help, and engaged Glenn Barton of Stone Boat Yard in Alameda to do the work.

Since there has been much written about exhaust riser replacement on the website and in the message board, I won’t bother repeating that information.

However, I noticed that no one had provided any pictures, so here they are:

1. Old riser and hump hose - You can see the nipple on the old blue hump hose, and the clean break in the black iron where the insulation begins.
2. New Riser - It came pre-insulated from the factory. Note the nipple on the port side that goes in under the head sink, the horizontal part that goes from under the sink to the engine compartment, and the drop and elbow into the back of the exhaust manifold, all one piece. The existing exhaust flange came off the back of the engine manifold easily, no doubt helped by the fact that I’d soaked the three studs with liquid wrench for three days before we did the work. The exhaust flange threads on to the threaded end of the riser. We used muffler paste on these threads.
3. New Heat Exchanger - I replaced the old 2 inch heat exchanger with the new three inch model that I bought last year. Glenn took the old bracket to his shop, and simply bent it down to fit the new heat exchanger underneath the new exhaust riser.

I had 1390 engine hours when the old riser failed. I believe that the riser was the original one, since the previous owner had left me with very good records which did not indicate that he’d ever replaced the riser.

I recommend that you all check your older exhaust risers. It’s easier to replace before failure. It took me over four hours to sail back to my slip the day of the “event” against a flood.

Stu Jackson
#224 1986 “Aquavite”

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The part you're describing is similar to one I had made when the original exhaust on my boat failed due to corrosion at the weld between the 5/8 inch water injection pipe and the 1 1/4 inch nominal size pipe (actually 1 5/8 inch OD).

Rather than buy from Catalina, which can be a Border Customs nightmare for those of us in Canada, I had a local fabricator, who could weld stainless steel, make up the whole thing out of screw coupled, stainless steel, schedule 40 pipe. The only welding required was to connect the water injection pipe to the last pipe section.

Next time, if there is another, I'll use schedule 80 pipe for the last section where the water injection pipe is welded in. Schedule 80 pipe has a thicker wall but the same outside diameter. I'm fairly sure that the original Catalina exhaust was schedule 80 for the end section. There are two reasons for using the schedule 80 pipe: the hot gas and water form a fairly corrosive mix that attacks the weld heat altered steel and the screw threads remove quite a bit of the pipe wall reducing its strength perhaps too much.

By the way, I reused the coupling to the engine. It can be removed from the exhaust pipe but might require a lot of heat, a very large pipe wrench and a large mechanic's vice. The heat, and I'm taking about to dull red, makes the coupling expand loosening (a relative term) the joint. A couple of strong friends would be a useful addition for this part of the job.

Regards

Charles Holder
Discover #617 ? 1988

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 06/11/2007 20:55:41

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 10:22:21

Did you replace your filter right before the problems started...? Do you have a primary and secondary filter?

There was an issue with certain model Racor Filter (the 500 series I believe). They changed the filters and now there is a spacer required or what you are experiencing will happen. It took years for this to dribble through to the boating community, there has been much suffering in the land. If this is your primary......

There are two fuel pumps involved here: The primary, or low pressure pump which delivers fuel from the tank at relatively low pressure to the high pressure or distribution pump which times fuel to the individual injectors.

If you did change the filter, and all the bits are correct, but you sucked air, you may have to bleed more properly, especially if the air got to the injectors. With the priming pump make sure you have no bubbles coming from the primary fuel pump. There is a bleed screw on there somewhere.

Then you bleed the secondary fuel pump in a similar fashion. Finally, you loosen each individual fuel supply to each injector, and, while cranking bleed them.

One warning on extended cranking: read here.....

http://www.skolnick.org/midnightwatch/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1518

I second the suggestion to get good manuals if you're going to do any of this yourself. There are also a number of good one and two day diesel meachanics courses available.
If you're going to get the $75 squad involved, make sure you're there to learn.

I doubt the fuel pump(s) went bad, they rarely do.

IF, and that's a really big IF, the injector pump went bad, make sure you're sitting down when they give you the quote.

Edited by - on

Admin
Forum Admin

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2007 : 11:26:22

Four issues -
First - it is running.

Second - Algae in the tank, they have to get the "special sparkless vacuum" to suck it and about 5 gallons out. We thought this might have been an issue going in so we drained the entire tank, however the sludge obviously didn't drain.

Pump for the closed coolant needs to be replaced - still works but doesn't sound pretty.

Raw water pump needs new gasket kit (that was on the survey and was on the list of to dos within the next few weeks.

The primary filter had two gaskets in it and should only have one. It was tucked up under the lid where it was supposed to be.

I'll probably escape for around 6 boat units with unknown quantities of peace of mind.

Edited by - on

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