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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/16/2002 : 17:51:07

OK, folks...

1. What's your preferred Man OverBoard maneuver? Figure 8, jibe circle, douse and motor back, or other?

2. Do you practice it? When and how?

3. What gear do you have for the purpose (such as for getting a person back on board)?

4. If our answers are "What are those?", "Not yet", and "What do I need?", what're we going to do about it?

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 07/17/2002 00:04:08

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coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2002 : 18:21:57

FOOD FOR THOUGHT! that is probably the best thing that i have read on this site. and will take care of practicing that this weekend. last year, my cousin was driving her power boat on lake winnipasocki (sp) in new hampshire. she was having a great time with her sister, who did not know anything about driving the boat (her sisters two small children were with them.) my cousins speaker cover from her stereo system blew off of the boat. she shut the engine off and dove overboard to retrieve it. the current kept the boat moving forward as she swam backwards for the cover. yes, she tired and could not make it back to the boat. her sister, horrified and the two small children threw all the boat cushions and everything else they could find to her. she sunk below the surface and it took two days to find her... last week here two men were out together on their power boat. they were long time friends and co workers. one fell off the boat. the other put the boat in reverse and then left the wheel to lower the swim ladder (this was a huge power boat). the one in the water was sucked into the blades of the propeller and killed....PLEASE, be sure that everyone on board knows what to do in this case...and have a safe summer on the water. thanks for reminding us....

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK

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Phredde
Navigator

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125 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2002 : 21:37:06

I've got to admit to only the first couple of steps:

- Purchased and actually wear auto inflating suspender type pfd. The other pfds were so uncomfortable I never wore them.
- Bought and installed Lifesling on the rail, gave rudimentary explanation on that and the engine to the admiral.

But after reading your post and coldducks stories, plan to:

- Practice the drill. Get out of the way while the admiral practices.
- Make sure I've got a lfiting procedure that will work (e.g. Halyard and mast winch?). I'm big, the admiral is little.
- Buy a tether for those really 'rockin and rolling days'

Any other advice???

Phredde
Catalina 25
San Francisco

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2002 : 23:56:21

1)Douse sails and do a 180 to windward or upwind of MOB.

2)Yes

3)Throw Horse shoe, throw rope, whistle, Strobe, GPS with MOB function, Ladder. MOB sling, trailing line

4)Always ready. The water here is 42 to 43 deg all year. 15 minutes in it and your a goner.

5) One person is to point and keep his eye on the MOB at all times. Throw anything you can overboard to mark the possition, Cushions markers, MOB pole or floating light.

Doug&Ruth
Wind Lass
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

coldducks
Captain

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USA
342 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2002 : 00:26:48

ok......lets move on to a happier subject.....

COLDDUCKS
FANTASY #409 C250WK

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2002 : 08:03:13

1. Douse Jib, do figure 8 and douse main depending on speed as we come alongside OB. I've been on a boat where we tried to motor, and learned that in most instances, if there is sufficient chop to toss a guy, your not going to get back to him. We were just lucky the crew of G'day was there to get him.
The first guy who spots him/her has the responsibility of not taking his eyes off him and throwing the PFD type 4 buoy. Jib Trimmer drops the jib to the deck immediately and then is responsible for making sure the boom isn't going to repeat the occurence on the Gybe. He is then responsible for dropping the main on the command of the skipper. Any additional crew get a spare line and a spare floatable PFD (got them cheap at boat us, square kind, USCG certified). Otherwise we use the tail of the jib sheet or main sheet cleated. Boat Hook is also brought to the companionway stairs for use if needed.

2. Randomly, throughout the season, any member of the crew can throw a fender overboard (as long as we are not racing) at any time to simulate a MOB. On Tsunami (Evelyn 32 I race) occasionally the skipper or I will quietly notify the other and just jump in (life jacket on). Record time is 89 seconds with an ex-marine doing a one arm pull back into the boat (looked like something the seals do when pulling a guy back into the zodiac) on the first pass.

3. Gear to get the person back on board is a swim ladder. If need be, the main halyard can be run throug a reefing block on the boom to hoist the man in.

4. If we are sailing at night, life jackets are mandatory. We also make it a point to announce to the crew, if new, what there responsibilities may be.

Duane Wolff
"The Flying Wasp"
C-25, #401 std,sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b1ce23b3127cce9b043565af3d0000004010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2002 : 09:37:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
ok......lets move on to a happier subject.....
COLDDUCKS
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Read what you want... This is good stuff! I'm gonna keep reading, and the rest of you keep writing... <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2002 : 10:07:58

The man overboard maneuver that I like best is one that Annapolis Sailing School taught at its St. Petersburg, Fla. facility in the late 1970’s. I suppose you could call it the “beam reach” maneuver. It’s very easy to remember and it’s easy to do it successfully, even if you don’t execute it perfectly.

When you have a person overboard, you should immediately toss a flotation device to the subject, and designate a spotter to keep the subject in sight. The helmsperson should immediately (1) bring the boat onto a beam reach, no matter what course you are on at the time. (If you are beating to windward, ease the sheets and steer downwind slightly. If you are broad reaching, harden the sails and steer slightly to windward.) Hold that course for about two boat lengths, and then (2) jibe the boat (regardless of whether you are on port tack or starboard tack), and sail back on a beam reach on the reciprocal course for about two boat lengths. When you are directly downwind of the person in the water, (3) steer straight up to windward, allowing your sails to luff. Steer directly at the person in the water, as if you are trying to run the person down. (Don’t worry about hurting the person by hitting him or her. You won’t be going that fast. Also, in wild seas, you might only get one chance to recover the person, and the closer you get, the better your chance of recovering the person.) The boat will come to a stop very near to the person. Reach out to the person with a boat hook, or toss a line to the person, and bring the person back aboard the boat. (The boat hook is better if the subject is unconscious, because you can snag his/her clothing with it. The tossed line is better if the subject is conscious, because a line will reach farther.)

To appreciate the simplicity of this maneuver, plot it out with a paper and pencil. Try it when the person goes overboard from a boat that is beating to windward on starboard tack. Then try it when the person goes overboard from a boat that is sailing on a broad reach on port tack. Then try it when the person goes overboard from a boat that is sailing dead downwind on either tack.

Thus, the essence of the maneuver is (1) bring the boat onto a beam reach. Hold that course for about two boat lengths. (2) Jibe the boat, and sail back on a beam reach on the reciprocal course for about two boat lengths. When you are directly downwind of the person in the water, (3) steer straight up to windward, and try to run the person down.

The beam reach maneuver is so simple to execute and to remember that I no longer feel a need to practice it regularly. However, whenever I have a person on board who is a non-swimmer or a poor swimmer, I “practice” it, to show them (and/or their parents) how quickly the boat can be brought back to them, in the event that they should fall overboard. (I still require such people to wear a life jacket). After practicing the maneuver for them, they are reassured, and are able to relax and enjoy sailing.

Before I practice the beam reach maneuver, I explain to all on board that, whenever a person goes overboard, anyone who sees it should call out “man overboard,” or any words to that effect. That person should keep the person in sight. Anyone else should immediately throw a flotation device to the person in the water. Anyone should also reach into the cockpit locker for the boat hook, or for a line to heave to the person in the water. Then, when we practice the maneuver, I give someone a flotation cushion and tell them to toss it overboard unexpectedly whenever they wish, and shout “Man overboard.” I don’t assign specific people to specific tasks, because the person who goes overboard might be the person who was assigned to one of the tasks. I make sure everyone knows what needs to be done, and ask them each to take the personal initiative to see that everything is done, in the event of an emergency. Everyone is responsible for the safety of everyone else.

A variation on the “beam reach” maneuver is the “figure eight” maneuver. After the person goes overboard, you (1) bring the boat onto a beam reach and hold that course for about two boat lengths. Then, instead of jibing, you (2) tack the boat, and then broad reach downwind to a point just to leeward of the person in the water. Finally, you (3) steer straight up to windward, and try to run the person down. The figure eight maneuver appeals to people who feel uncomfortable about jibing the boat. I prefer the beam reach maneuver, because you sail two boat lengths on a beam reach, and then jibe 180 deg. and sail back for two boat lengths on a reciprocal course. As a result, it is easier for the skipper and crew to keep oriented to the location of the person in the water, and to find the person, in the event that they lost sight of him/her. If you use the figure eight maneuver, you sail one direction on a beam reach, but you sail the other direction on a broad reach. It is easier to become disoriented, and, if you lost sight of the person, you might not be able to find the person in the water.

Neither of these maneuvers requires the lowering of any sails. Thus, the boat can be brought back to the person in the water much more quickly, and, with both sails flying, the boat will remain more maneuverable.

I have a folding swim ladder attached to my transom, and can lower it quickly, to enable a person to re-board the boat.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/17/2002 10:33:19

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/17/2002 10:47:06

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2002 : 10:25:45

1. Figure 8. This could be modified depending on conditions. If under sail would only douse sails & start the motor as a last resort.

2. We practice at once a year with a milk jug (although I admit we haven't done that this year). We also make it a point to "rescue" anything we lose overboard flotsom - floating swim ladder (found floating in the Bay last fall), soda/beer can "cozy", that hat that flew off (those sink fast!).

3. We have a throw bag with rope and use the swim ladder for reboarding. We practice with the throw bag annaully and we've actually used the throw bag in our marina to help a neighbor in after they're outboard stalled upon approach to their dock. We have NOT practiced lifting an unconcious person back on board using the halyard.

We also use inflatable SOSpenders life jackets with harness and wear them when the water is cold or the conditions require. If we're even considering if we should put them on we do.

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

Edited by - on

RL
1st Mate

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USA
76 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2002 : 11:17:13

Thanks for the kick in the ass. I recieved MOB training at Annapolis Sailing School three years ago. Havent practiced since, except maybe a hat overboard retrieval, lost more than saved. Will spend this weekend practicing and perfecting.

THANKS FOR THE KICK
RL

Free Spirit

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2002 : 13:40:13

The Williamson Turn is the preferred maneuver for MOB retrieval expressed by the Coast Guard.

Since I sail alone practicing it is moot. If I go over I practice the Breast Stroke.

Val on "CALISTA" #3936

Val Bisagni

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2002 : 13:46:11

"Neither of these maneuvers requires the lowering of any sails. "

Steve: Thanks for stressing KISS in a very important issue -- when anything other than KISS could likely fail in a real life (or death) situation.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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Shelby
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2002 : 17:13:59

Dave..great subject matter and very important.

I have been trained in both the "figure 8" and "beam reach" maneuver at ASA. I prefer the "beam reach" because it is so simple. I never use my engine unless it is necessary, which it has not been. I will practice this again when I get back in the water in September.

Shelby
"Third S"
'82 C25 #3208
SKSR

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2002 : 10:29:05

Interesting stuff! I don't know about the Williamson Turn... I was a Figure 8 fan, but thinking about it, I may look harder at the Beam Reach maneuver (basically what I used to call Jibe Circle). I've been skeptical about using something that could require the Admiral to jibe the boat in heavy weather (the most likely conditions for separating me from the boat). But simplest is indeed best, and our primary strategy for heavy weather is not to be in it.

Some friends of ours attended a seminar titled something like "Suddenly You're Alone" about handling emergencies on a boat--something we should all think about. For example, does your Admiral (male or female) or guest know how to summon help on the VHF? How to jibe, tack, and furl alone? How to lower, start, and run the outboard, etc., etc. We're working on it...

We have a ski tow rope for throwing--it floats, and has a handle that aids throwing and hanging on. I can cleat it, flip it over the stern rail, and stash it in the fuel locker, but it's probably not as long as it should be. I'll probably add a horseshoe to our inventory--for now, we just have a cockpit full of square cushions.

Lifing is another interesting issue--a C-25 makes it more so than a C-250, with the open transom... I need to look at how the mainsheet can be adapted for the purpose. I heard of one woman who, unable to get her unconscious husband aboard, lashed him to the side of the boat and dragged him until help arrived--he survived.

Be safe out there! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/18/2002 10:32:48

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2002 : 11:01:09

Val: I looked up the Coast Guard's Williamson Turn--it appears to apply only to power boats, since you will likely end up approaching the victim down-wind, which obviously isn't a good idea with the sails up.

I plan to practice the beam-jibe-beam approach, probably recommending to my wife that she simply release the jib during the jibe, and leave it free. A flailing sail could even get the attention of other boats in the area.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Shelby
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2002 : 16:25:43

This may be obvious, but I also was taught to let the genoa sheets go so they are in the water. In that way when you come along side the person that needs help, they can grab hold of the sheet (assuming they able).

Shelby
"Third S"
'82 C25
#3208
SKSR

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Steve
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2002 : 16:56:50

All of this is very useful information. Also, my GPS (and it's an older one) has a one button "instant waypoint" feature. If visibility is poor, or it's night, this could help get you back -

Steve
87 WK TR
"Island Time"

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2002 : 21:20:14

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
All of this is very useful information. Also, my GPS (and it's an older one) has a one button "instant waypoint" feature. If visibility is poor, or it's night, this could help get you back -
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
The Garmin 48 (and probably others) has a MOB feature that sets a waypoint and immediately shows the course to get back to it. Just press Goto twice, and it's there. A current could throw you off a little, since the waypoint won't move, but the victim might.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

nate
Navigator

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240 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 22:49:44

All this talk of the "Beam Reach" approach to recovery has me wondering if the method I use is outdated? I attended a J-World sailing school three years ago and was taught the "Quick Stop" method of recovery.
As soon as you have swimmer you throw a tack leaving the jib backed and then complete a 270 degree turn (Jibe) that finds you heading back at the victim. Luff up below the swimmer and consider letting them back aboard.
We practice this skill often and feel comfortable executing it. I guess as long as you have a plan and are practiced at it that is really what counts.

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2002 : 23:15:23

Nate - I'm with you on this one! The Quick-Stop IMHO is the preferred method - it also fulfils my KISS principle. We practiced the "beam reach" method on our Bareboat Chartering Course in 8' - 10' seas. By the time we were headed back to the "victim" (a PFD) it was almost lost to sight DESPITE someone having been appointed as the pointer! In my experience these are the conditions when you would most expect a MOB situation. (In the C22 Nationals - where everyone was running a full main and a 155% genoa in 20+k, 5 crewmembers went overboard - all were recovered, but I don't know what method was most used).
Derek

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2002 : 11:05:09

Nate: I think you've got as good an approach as anyone--the key is to plan and practice. It should not be something that we make up when the situation first arises. I kinda like the "quick stop" idea, and want to try it. I think I might add one step: start the motor. It can't hurt to have it running--as long as you're not in gear with the swimmer on the aft quarter on the same side. When you get back with head-to-wind, holding or adjusting the position could be easier with the motor. Any comments on that?

Boy, am I glad I asked this question! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette "Passage" in SW CT

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5913 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2002 : 15:47:12

I don't think we have to determine which method is the ultimate, best MOB method. Any method that is easy for you to remember, and that you can perform quickly, efficiently and successfully, is a good method. Besides, I'm beginning to think that each method is especially useful in different conditions.

I am just now learning of the quick-stop method, and have never tried it, but plan to do so this summer. The brief description and diagram of it in "The Annapolis Book of Seamanship" lacks sufficient detail to really explain how best to execute it. According to Rousmaniere, you sail the boat in "…a series of tight circles with the sails trimmed flat to slow the boat. Once you have trimmed the sails flat, do not adjust the sheets as the boat tacks and jibes." (Nate's description of the quick-stop method has helped to clarify it for me.) It seems to me that a benefit of the quick-stop method is that, if you have lost sight of the person in the water, you can sail increasingly larger circles at reduced speed until you find the person. I'm not sure I would want to use the quick-stop method in high winds and big seas, when the boat is carrying the largest possible sail area, as is often the case when racing, because reaching with over-trimmed sails with big waves coming abeam could result in a knockdown. If you are knocked down, you could end up with two people in the water, instead of only one.

One of the things I like about the beam reach method is that, even if you lose sight of the person in the water, by performing the maneuver mechanically, it will automatically take the boat back to a position very close to the person in the water. (Sail a beam reach for two boat lengths, jibe, and sail a beam reach for two boat lengths, and then head straight up into the wind.) Once you get to that position, if you still can't see the person, you might change over to the quick-stop method, and start circling in widening circles until you find the person.

The figure eight method is probably better than the other two methods in high winds and big seas, because it doesn't require jibing the boat. (But, if the conditions are that bad, and if everyone is harnessed to the boat, as they should be, then you shouldn't have any people go overboard.)

So, maybe the ideal would be to learn all three methods, and to know the type of situation in which each is more appropriate.

I don't like to have the motor running when there is a person in the water, whether it is in gear or not. If there is a mechanical malfunction or someone bumps the gear shift accidentally (which could happen in the excitement and confusion of a MOB situation), the result could be disastrous. Also, if you execute the MOB maneuver correctly, you won't need the motor. If you fool around lowering the motor mount and starting the motor, the distraction could significantly interfere with your ability to execute the MOB maneuver correctly.

Derek, if 5 people went overboard in 20 kts of wind during one C-22 national regatta, those guys need to re-think their sail selection and trim. They are sailing overpowered in a boat that is very unforgiving of that particular mistake. In four C-25 national regattas, some of which were sailed in winds stronger than 20 kts, I can only remember one MOB-type situation. A crew member went over the side and into the water while rounding a mark, but another crew member was able to grab him as he went over, and keep him from separating from the boat until he could be pulled back aboard. If the competition is close, and if you have to go back to retrieve a crew member, and if you finish in third place in one race, instead of in second place, it might very well cost you the championship. In one national regatta, I lost first place by one finishing position out of five races, and in another national regatta, I lost by two finishing positions out of seven races. If a racer makes big, avoidable mistakes like losing a crew member, or committing a foul, he will take himself out of the competition, because there are too many people out there who aren't making those mistakes. While he's turning around and going back to get his crew member, the others are charging around the marks toward the finish line.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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3324 Posts

Response Posted - 07/23/2002 : 16:50:13

Steve - I agree entirely that the sail plan was too large for the conditions in the C22 Nationals - however, I was only the crew, not the skipper! One contributing factor was that none of the boats had lifelines nor stern pulpits ("gotta keep the weight down"!!) I'm very happy to be back on my C25 (or at least I will be when the lake finally goes down - maybe by October <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>)
Derek

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