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Racing swing versus fin

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/18/2007 : 09:17:36

Last night, we were racing my swing keel boat against a fin-keel C-25. My crew noted that they were sailing much more upright than we were. My boat seems to like a 20 degree heel upwind. Is their upright stance a function of their keel design or does one of us have the heeling angle wrong?

Bruce Baker
Falls Church, VA
"Yee Ha" 3573
'83SR/SK

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2007 : 09:29:20

Sails could be the difference. Flatter sails->less heel->better overall lift from the keel and sails. Their sails might have been in better condition, or they might have done a better job at flattening and trimming them for the conditions.

Were you on a beat? If so, who was pointing higher? If on a reach, maybe you needed to ease the sheets a little for maximum speed.

The fin is 400# heavier than the swing, but the swing has (I think) a foot more draft, so it's a longer lever.

One last question (your answer was only implied): Who was going faster? From your crew's remarks, I assume he was.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/18/2007 09:35:06

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2007 : 09:47:59

The fin is more stable and much preferred here in high wind Kansas.

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2007 : 10:25:29

The keel weight could be a factor - Other things to consider - Did he have more crew weight? More crew on the rail is a faster better pointing boat. Did you have more sail area in terms of same rig - std or tall - or sail size selection? Was he dumping off more main? As Dave mentioned are his sails newer and not blown out? Flatter in almost all circumstances is going to indicate better point and better speed. There is some degree of heel that is optimal of course, but generally speaking you want it flatter. With all the crap below on 25's and the different layouts, plus full head, different motor mounts, different gas can sizes, full watertank vs empty every boat is going to be different. If you can get a flat day with a steady breeze I'd try a half mile at varying angles to see.

I'd guess you will find 12-15 degrees to be about right.

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Bruce Baker
Captain

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USA
402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 10:54:55

Thanks for the feedback so far. We were sailing upwind in light air. I find that my boat likes a fair bit of heel going upwind.

I used to sail with a guy who said that the optimal heel angle for all boats is 17 degrees. While I might quibble a bit with that, it's close to right for my boat.

In answer to a question above, the other guys were ahead of us, but we were gaining on them. They got a better start, and they are faster downwind, but we are faster upwind as we were on the last leg upwind.

My theory is that they should have been inducing some heel as I was. Beginners think that you should always sit on the windward rail and that flatter is always better. Not so in light air. But maybe fin keel boats like to sail a bit more upright? That's the question.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 11:39:58

I think my fin likes to be heeled in light air and I find the best angle is between 15 and 20 degrees.

Never raced a swinger.

Against the wing, the fin points higher and is faster upwind. Slower off the wind.

Against a TR, an SR has an edge in heavy air, gives it up a little in light air.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/25/2007 : 11:54:57

Virtually every monohull does better in very light air by heeling, primarily because it helps shape the sails. In almost dead air, if you move the crew to the leeward rail, the boat will start to move, or move a little faster. Also the lighter the air, the more benefit you get from <i>not</i> sailing dead downwind. How far off the wind to go can be determined by maximizing VMG to the mark with your GPS. Part art, part science, and part luck!

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.