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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/02/2007 : 09:23:25

SO, just out of curiosity - how does this work?

Frank Hoppers post about shooting power boaters in Kansas was mysteriously ERASED, but referenced by others before it was erased so we all know it existed???

Now I noticed the "I've blocked JG" post by the secretary? of this organization is locked - but not erased? And Frank Hopper locked it? What gives???

Ooops, I just got erased!

Sten
PO C25 FK SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 09:35:34

Sten,

For the greater good of the association and it's members, some topics and/or responses are edited, as I suspect this one will be shortly.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 09:44:33

So who is the official censor? It seems like the officers are censoring each other? Why is the I've blocked JG post still up?

Does this mean that dissenting opinions are not allowed or will be deleted?

just curious about who gets to decide what...

sten

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 10:08:28

There probably is not an "official" censor, just whoever has administrative rights that gets there first.

"Does this mean that dissenting opinions are not allowed or will be deleted?"

They will be deleted if they fall within these posted rules...

4. Political commentary, personal attacks, posts with profanity and other off color remarks will be deleted and the offender will be warned.

7. Personal attacks against other posters or members will not be tolerated. Offenders may be banned from the forum

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 10:09:47

Sten, if you or I post a reply that we later decide was really, really stupid, we can log on to the forum and we can either edit or delete our own replies. After giving some thought to his reply, Frank might have decided to delete it, as he had every right to do.

The officers can also lock a thread, so that no new replies can be posted to it, but it's not erased. Or, they can delete a thread completely.

The first time I can remember a thread being deleted entirely, it had been started by a new "member" and as I recall, it tried to direct people to several sexually explicit websites that were completely unrelated to sailing. We generally agreed that it was an obvious abuse of our forum and were glad to see it deleted.

Now we're told that it's inappropriate to "attack" another member. If that happens, it'll be deleted. It appears that some of the officers consider it an "attack" if a member criticises an officer for the way he performs his duties.

In the past, an officer threatened to ban me from the forum because I criticized the officers for their tardiness in performing one of their duties, despite the fact that I'm a past Commodore of the National Association (1984-85) and a 2 time winner of the national regatta. About that same time, "JG" also became critical of some of the officers, and he was, in fact, banned from the national association.

I truly hope this thread is neither locked nor deleted, because it is becoming apparent that we need to have an open and unemotional discussion of the circumstances which justify the use, by the officers, of the power to censor the forum. I certainly support the appropriate use of that power, but not it's abuse.

I have some proposals. I propose that anyone who is banned from participating in the forum be afforded a right to appeal that action to the membership. That would protect individual members from any arbitrary or capricious actions by an officer. Also, I propose that the actions that justify the censorship of a member's reply be clearly defined, so that the members will know, in advance, what behavior they must avoid in order to not be censored. Obviously, no member should be censored or banned merely for criticising an officer.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/02/2007 10:25:11

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 10:18:36

I was censored once when I posted this...

Edited by - dlucier on 08/02/2007 10:18:57

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 10:19:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Does this mean that dissenting opinions are not allowed or will be deleted?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't believe it is a matter of censoring, just ensuring that the discussions remain somewhat on topic on something that everyone is interested in, specfically 25 foot Catalina's and sailing. There are numerous other forums for extensive political disccourse elsewhere.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 10:48:45

Well, I guess I should reply to this.

First, as to my replies disappearing, after I received a second personal email regarding the post and the disappointment of those members in the post I decided that I would delete it. That was to demonstrate to the members who contacted me that I do in fact care what they think. I would not delete somonelse's message unless it was a clear violation of one of our forum rules so I did not edit the posts that refer to my original post.

Second, as to the JG thread; as with any organization personnell problems are confidential. Dennis brought up emails that he has received, (many people have received them), Dennis came and went from the Association so quickly that even though he was Staff he never got a sense of the history of the Association; he has no idea who JG is. Arlyn replied with a possitive coment about JG's service to the Association. I felt those two posts covered an issue that some long time members have probably wondered about. Hense I left it up but locked it before it turned into something devisive.

Several of we volunteers are ceasing our service to the Association after this term. I am very proud of what the Officers have done for the Association while I have served. I am sure that those who follow will feel the same way. The nominations are currently open for next year's board, please nominate somone or better yet nominate yourself. The Association grows through new blood so even if you are fairly new you are still a great candidate if you care enough to serve.

Frank Hopper, Commodore

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 13:28:32

I find these forums to be well managed and I appreciate the volunteers who devote precious time to it. Frank, thank you for your thoughtful explanations. I think you did the right thing.

Now, would someone please delete that goofy photo of Don!! It violates every norm of acceptability.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 08/02/2007 13:30:09

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 18:37:18

I, too, agree with Frank's actions in both cases. However, I wasn't kidding when I suggested he probably knew what he was starting in his gunboat thread...

I'll suggest the following variations on Steve's theme (which are not far from what appears to be the current practice):

- Censoring of posts can be immediate by an officer if it clearly violates one of the published rules.
- Removal of a post or thread because it's "getting out of hand" (but not in clear violation of a rule) should be by a vote of the officers.
- Banning of a participant should be by a vote of the officers. Any appeals (from the individual or other members) should simply go to them via e-mail. There are no Constitutional rights at issue here, and defining a process and a quorum for involving the membership in such an issue would be difficult.
- Each of the above actions should be promptly explained on the forum.
- St!nkp*tters and over-60 curmudgeons should be afforded special consideration as an "emotionally challenged" class.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/02/2007 18:40:29

Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2007 : 20:29:12

As a somewhat new member (couple of years)I would like to throw in my 2 cents...This is a very special site. I visit other sailing sites and the overboard contributions seem to happen all too often for my taste. But that's okay...that's what the net is all about. Every site has it's own identity. This site is my preference...the current and former members, one and all, create what I believe to be a unique place.

I apologize for my ramblings but I just returned from the marina...they just reset a crucial piling that fell a few weeks ago. This left my port aft end totally exposed to anything out of the north...thank goodness for spring lines.

Anyway, I'll be in my cabin...carry on.

Edited by - on

Ericson33
Admiral

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USA
892 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2007 : 12:23:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Don B
 This left my port aft end totally exposed to anything out of the north...thank goodness for spring lines.

Anyway, I'll be in my cabin...carry on.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't know if I would want my port aft end exposed either, especially out of the north

Sorry I had to do it..........

Carry on

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2007 : 14:37:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Capri25
I don't know if I would want my port aft end exposed either, especially out of the north

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You mean "portly aft"...?

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/03/2007 14:39:54

Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2007 : 15:17:14

Actually, both may be correct.

I'll have to remind myself not to post after a long day.

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2007 : 11:57:18

Here , here Steve, right on the money....are you still elligible to run for office?

Val on Calista # 3936, Patchogue,N.Y.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2007 : 15:25:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 ...are you still elligible to run for office?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Like me, he isn't even eligible to vote.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2007 : 18:46:57

First off, that is a photo of me- I'm sure now that I've "outed" myself the pic will show up on the Weblog very shortly right next to that photo of Frank...

Since I'm the guy that does a lot of the edit/delete stuff I'll give you all an idea of how it works.

All of the officers are able to lock threads and move topics. A few of us have absolute powers that pretty much allows for anything - and that is in fact needed.

Anything breaking the general rules as noted at the beginning of most of the forums will be locked, deleted or moved accordingly. Spam and Advertisements are deleted and that member is blocked (usually a spambot address so no person or actual member is afflicted.) Legitimate sailing stuff for sale is moved to the swap section. We rarely if ever delete any threads without violating one of the following personal attack, political in nature (with some leeway, everyone has an opinion), sales/tactless advertising, free viagra, penile enlargement, etc. When something like this does occur, preserving the sailing portion of the thread is our utmost concern. In fact, when the spam-bots peddling those ED meds hit us 2 mos ago, I deleted over 200 individual posts. Not threads, posts. I easily could have wiped out each and every thread in an 8th of the time. Many times I have sent emails to people to please edit their own posts as well when they have slightly stepped over the line. I know some of the other officers have done this too.

Also, the one person who was banned from this forum, was not banned from the association, nor the rest of the website. Just the forum. It was in the mind of the officers done with reason. The individual asked to be reinstated but did not resolve the prior issues. It has not come up for a vote since. The forum is not a right, anybody can use it. Therefore an appeals process would not mean a thing to a non member. The association needs to have the ability to kick whomever wherever if the forum is to remain open to the world.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2007 : 12:57:59

To paraphrase our 16th President...
"You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot please all the people all the time."

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2007 : 18:55:50

I agree that granting a member a right to appeal his banishment from the forum would be a cumbersome way of protecting him from the arbitrary and capricious actions of the officers, but I don't know how else to do it. I believe some means of protecting the members from unreasonable actions by the officers is needed.

I agree, too, that there is no constitutional right to participate in our forum. I do, however, believe that a dues paying member has an enforceable legal right to continue to enjoy all the rights and benefits flowing from his membership, so long as he complies with all reasonable rules of the association. When a member pays his dues, he enters into a contract with the association which entitles him to participate in the forum, and the officers of the Association have no legal right to deprive him of those rights and benefits arbitrarily or unreasonably.

But, I'm really not particularly concerned with the legal niceties of the situation. I'm concerned with the possibility that one or more officers might, in the name of the Association, decide to treat one or more of its own members unfairly. Until recent years, I would never have dreamed that it could happen in an organization that is so characterized by warm camaraderie among its members. I would have simply trusted that the officers would "do the right thing," but now I do not have that confidence.

As Arlen said, JG conscientiously served this Association for a period of years as its Mainsheet editor. I have been active with the Association, off and on, almost from its inception (1983). I was it's second Commodore.

A few years ago, the officers failed to organize and conduct a 2002 Catalina 25 National Regatta. I know from experience that the officers need to begin planning about 1 1/2 years before the event, in order to find an adequate site and sponsoring club for the next event. So, prior to the 2006 National Regatta, I started talking about the planning of the 2007 event, hoping it would stir the officers into action. When I didn't see anything happening, I suggested that someone talk to a very active C25 club on the Chesapeake, to see if they might be interested in hosting the 2007 National Regatta. I believe it has only been held in an eastern state once, in 1988, in Maryland. Nobody contacted that club. Moreover, after the 2006 event was held, a site for the 2007 event was not selected yet. Fortunately for us, Edgewater Yacht Club was willing to host the event for a second year, at Lake Erie. When that announcement was made, I expressed disappointment in the fact that that important event was not dealt with in a timely manner, and that we had to repeat a second year at the same location, instead of moving the event around the country, which is obviously in the best interests of the Association.

That's when JG came into the picture. He agreed with me that the matter had not been handled well, but he expressed himself in much more forceful terms than I. He demanded to know whether anyone had inquired of the Chesapeake club, and if not, why not. Neither of us used inappropriate language. I didn't "name names," as I am not doing here. JG focussed his arguments on one person, but I didn't consider that a "personal attack." I saw him as responding to that person's attempt to defend the indefensible. Later I was told that JG sent one of the officers a private email that was highly inappropriate, but of course I was not privy to that communication, and don't know whether it happened or not. I also don't know whether it was one of those intemperate things that many of us say in a fit of anger that we wish we could take back, but can't after we clicked on the "send" button.

At about that time it was announced that JG was no longer the Mainsheet editor, and that he was banned from the forum. I don't know what JG's side of it was, because he didn't have access to the forum. All we have is the officer's version.

I thought a person who had served the Association well had been treated shabbily, and that, even if he had expressed himself inappropriately, a little tact could have prevented the loss of a good person. It looked to me as if somebody had fumbled an important task, and, instead of acknowledging that fact, smoothing ruffled feathers, and going on to correct the problem, somebody decided to stifle the loudest accuser. Moreover, at about that same time an officer expressed his opinion that I should also be banned from the forum, because I had sold my Catalina 25 and was no longer an owner. (Remember that my only sin was to criticise the officers collectively for their inattention to a duty. I didn't use inappropriate language, attack anyone, or single anyone out for criticism.) If an officer can banish me from the forum for criticising their performance, it can happen to you, too.

It may be that a lot of apologies are in order here. Perhaps the officers should apologize for their neglect of the Regatta in 2006-7, although I must say, they should be commended for their recent, very timely announcement of the site for the 2008 Regatta. (Some might think that my criticism of their untimeliness last year motivated them to get on the ball and get the job done in a timely manner this year.) An apology for their clumsy handling of the banishment of JG might also be in order, but I doubt that they would agree. JG should certainly apologize for expressing himself in an over-the-top manner, if indeed that happened.

Overall, our officers have done great work, especially this year, and I don't want anyone to consider this as a lack of appreciation for what is, overall, a job very well done.

I didn't open this thread, but it has raised important issues regarding the amount of respect that members can expect from their officers, and the limits of the powers of the officers. All I can do is relate my experiences, and each of you will have to decide whether you are willing to submit to capricious treatment by some officer who thinks it's better to stifle your criticism than to solve the root problem. You can probably insulate yourself against the possibility of being banned from the forum simply by not criticising them when they fumble the ball. Just keep telling them what a great job they're doing. I have always believed that the greatest service you can provide to a person in authority is to tell him when he's wrong.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/06/2007 19:00:41

Admin
Forum Admin

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 08/06/2007 : 20:28:12

Steve I sent you an email.

Duane

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2007 : 07:34:18

As an in/outsider I think that you may consider instituting a neutral position of forum moderator......someone who is impartial to the politics and only follows a set of guidelines that describe what is, and is not in good taste.

Dissention, disagreement and wildly varying opinions are inevitable. Making statements of said opinions that are courteous, respectful of others and in good taste is not.

All you need is an impartial umpire who has no (stated) opinion, nay, doesn't even need to know the ins and outs of the subject matter at hand. All he needs to make sure is that people talk nicely. Those that don't need to be pulled aside, for a while, or permanently.

The position should be untill recalled....a referendum (forum poll) would work well both on the way in and out. A two week period for candidates to step up to the plate.... etc.

It would seem that this would all be possible outside the formal structure of the organization..... no amendmends required.

Just my $.03

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:06:53

I just logged onto a website hosted by JG, and was disappointed in the way my friend reacted to his situation. I found the materials posted there to be vindictive toward the officers of the National Association, and the manner in which he reacted doesn't reflect well on him. Whenever you believe you have been attacked unfairly, it's never wise to respond in such a way as to sink to the level of your attackers, or beneath their level, because in doing so, you lend credence to the accusations that they're making about you. People don't always judge you on the basis of what is true, but on the basis of what they perceive to be true, and, if you act in a way that causes them to believe the worst about you, you end up hurting yourself.

In any event, an optimist might suggest that we have solved the problem by discussing it. Maybe the future officers who are presently participating in the forum will be convinced of the inappropriateness of using their power to banish members in order to stifle reasonable criticism.

Edited by - on

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:58:33

The best thing to do when one is angry is to wait, catch ones breath and rather do nothing than do or say something one might later regret. It is not easy.

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2007 : 13:08:30

Oscar, you would drive the floral and greeting card industries out of business.

There seems to be some dynamic about on-line fora similar to cabin fever (or long-distane sailing

). People who are on the same forum everyday end up at teach others' throats. If you don't believe me, go ask a question on one of the general sailing fora. One of the regulars will answer and another will attack their answer.

Can't believe I am keeping this thread alive...
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Oscar
 The best thing to do when one is angry is to wait, catch ones breath and rather do nothing than do or say something one might later regret. It is not easy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2007 : 17:22:52

Can't believe I am keeping this thread alive...

no kidding... all my posts about AIS or something else that will keep our asses out of hot water never got this much action... Anchor kellets, etc... nope - folks like a little friction once in awhile - sorry I brought it up but maybe the air will be cleared...

The wife and I be selling all our crap and moving onto our boat - so this seems pretty minimal at the moment... www.svlysistrata.com still working on it

sten

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2007 : 22:38:58

As a person who owes much to this forum, I can only express gratitude and kudos for the quality of content and contributors.
I bought my C25 because of this site. Keep doing what you're doing.

Edited by - on

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