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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/17/2007 : 09:38:03

I've just been asked to help a couple friends sail a recently restored, two-masted, gaff-rigged schooner from the Chesapeake Bay to New York, and then through the Erie Canal to the Great Lakes, and ultimately to Lake Michigan. They plan to leave this Thursday, and expect the trip to take about 3 weeks. We sailed the boat on the Bay yesterday, and I learned how to tune an old-style sailing rig with deadeyes, how belaying pins are used, and how to sail a boat without winches. She's big and heavy, but she has a very big, powerful rig, and can carry a lot of sail area. When we get to the Canal, we'll have to take the masts down, carry them on deck, and put them back up when we leave, so I expect to learn a lot about rigging the old boat. The only real bluewater part of the trip will be from the Delaware Bay to New York, although sailing the Great Lakes could be challenging, too. (I'm really looking forward to sailing her through New York harbor.) When I start to think about all the things that could go wrong along the way, it's intimidating, but there comes a time when the opportunity is just too good to pass up.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2007 : 20:27:10

Steve, Keep us posted!

I'd love to be out to see her as she passes Sandusky Bay. Let us know if you're looking for transient docking in the area. I imagine our outgoing vice-commodore could arrange something in Cleveland. Depending on her draft, There's probably room in my marina in Sandusky. Obviously, that assumes a southern Lake Erie route.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2007 : 22:20:24

Yup--simple tacking is a whole new adventure (with running backstays and such)... What an adventure!

Keep a log!

Edited by - on

Admin
Forum Admin

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2007 : 06:54:12

Let me know if you need a transient slip at EYC

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2007 : 14:51:53

Steve, I live near the eastern end of the old Erie Canal, now the Mohawk River. Restrictions are in place because of low water. The beginning seven locks are only allowing traffic through on the half hour, westbound. There may be more limitations coming soon including an early fall closing. I can't give you an 800 number to call but if you do an internet search on New York State's Barge Canal system they might give you current updates. My 5 month sailing season ended a month early because of lack of rain fall hear in upstate New York.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2007 : 14:57:22

Steve 1-800 4CANAL4 is the 800 number for the New York Canal system.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2007 : 15:36:21

Bear, thanks for the tip on the canal. I went to the canal website and printed the latest notice to mariners.

Dave, you're right - Running backstays are also new to me. When we sailed the boat last weekend, I used them for tacking, but, can anyone tell me how they are used when you gybe?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2007 : 21:34:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Running backstays are also new to me...can anyone tell me how they are used when you gybe?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll ask somebody tomorrow and get back to you. (I'm guessing, for starters, you need to trim the mainsheet tight to center the boom so you can set the new windward stay just before crossing the wind.)

Hope the trip works out!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/18/2007 21:35:49

Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2007 : 11:15:22

Pictures, we want pictures! Where is the boatporn.....

Edited by - on

djn
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2007 : 23:22:50

Hi Steve, sounds like a great time. If you are not experinced sailing the Great Lakes, they can be as rough as any ocean. Lake Erie is shallow and can turn challenging in a minute. Lake Huron is deep and the winds this time of year can power that big boat like a C25. Lake Michigan is the same. Take many pics and enjoy the ride. Cheers.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2007 : 10:20:32

Well, I'm back early from the cruise. I went as far as Cape May, New Jersey and decided to not go any further. The next leg of the trip would have been offshore, in the Atlantic, and, up to that point I saw a lot of bad seamanship and bad judgment and mechanical issues that caused me to feel uncomfortable about the trip.

The boat continued on for 2-3 days after I left it, but, when they started up the Hudson River, the oil pressure warning signal came on, and they burned up the engine. The cost to replace the engine will probably be in the area of $15,000.00. The warning signal came on once before, while I was on the boat, and the owner continued running the motor for several minutes before shutting it down.

It's a shame, because it was really fun to sail an old gaff-rigged schooner, and, when we passed by, people often got out their cameras and snapped photos of her.

Oh well, better to be safe than sorry. It could have happened while they were 20-30 miles out in the Atlantic, and there could have been a lot worse consequences.

Nevertheless, I still want to make my first honest-to-goodness bluewater passage, so, the trip has started me thinking about circumnavigating the Del Marva peninsula next year on my boat. The trip usually starts in the Chesapeake Bay, goes north through the Chesapeake and Delaware Canal, then across the Delaware Bay to Cape May, which is a beautiful old seaside resort. Then you sail south along the Atlantic coast to the entrance to the Chesapeake Bay. After re-entering the Bay, you return to your starting point. The trip usually takes 7-10 days, and it offers a taste of bluewater cruising, for those who want to get their feet wet without jumping in all the way. Also, transiting the C&D Canal and the Delaware Bay is an interesting exercise in navigation, because they both have strong tidal currents, and you have to time your passages so that the boat is carried by the current, instead of fighting it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2007 : 12:23:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...Also, transiting the C&D Canal and the Delaware Bay is an interesting exercise in navigation, because they both have strong tidal currents, and you have to time your passages so that the boat is carried by the current, instead of fighting it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and then there're the container ships in the canal...

A good friend crewed on a similar trip on a gaff-rigged wooden schooner from Baltimore to Mystic--it turned out better, but he's had enough of that! Sorry your trip fizzled, but you apparently made the right choice.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/01/2007 12:27:03

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 10:38:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...and then there're the container ships in the canal... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The day after we passed through the canal we heard an announcement on the VHF that the canal was "...closed to all traffic until further notice." Apparently, a barge had gone out of control and was sideways in the canal.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 15:14:20

I hope no container ship had entered the canal before it happened!

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2007 : 15:56:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Steve Milby: The next leg of the trip would have been offshore, in the Atlantic, and, up to that point I saw a lot of bad seamanship and bad judgment and mechanical issues that caused me to feel uncomfortable about the trip. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,
Can you elaborate on what you observed, and your chain of thought to leave the boat? It sounds to me like you made a good choice, I'm just curious what else happened that influenced your decision to leave.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 09:59:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Can you elaborate on what you observed, and your chain of thought to leave the boat? It sounds to me like you made a good choice, I'm just curious what else happened that influenced your decision to leave.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A lot of things contributed to my decision to leave the boat. It started with the fact that the freshly rebuilt engine showed an oil pressure problem a couple of days before we left, but the owner simply added another quart of oil and ignored it after a casual conversation with a marina employee. The owner didn't plan on leaving for another 9 days, but he left early, instead of using that time to have the engine checked out more thoroughly before leaving on a long trip.

A couple of days before I left the boat, the oil pressure alarm sounded, and the owner continued to run the engine for several minutes before he shut it off.

The sails on the boat are "laced" to the spars with line. The owner used line for that purpose that was half the size of that specified by the builder.

Those were the main factors that led to my decision to leave the boat. The next leg of the trip would have been offshore, from Cape May, New Jersey to New York Harbor. It seemed to me that, if we had sailed into 20 knot winds for a few hours, the undersized line could have parted, and, if the engine also gave out, we would be offshore in the Atlantic in late September with no means of locomotion. As it turned out, they had favorable winds and a good sail, and had no problems with their sails, but the engine did in fact give up a day or so later. But, even if we made it to New York, up the Hudson River and through the Erie Canal without engine or sail problems, we would still have to sail the length of Lake Erie in October, up the Detroit River, across Lake St. Clair, and across part of Lake Huron. It seemed to me that there were still a lot of opportunities for a lot of things to go wrong in places where we would be vulnerable. I weighed the risks, and decided not to go any further.

Other factors contributed to my decision. The skipper grounded the boat many, many times along the way, and wasn't able to free it from even a very soft grounding without a tow. When he got towed off, he repeatedly drove the boat back into the mud in the same spot. I don't fault him for running aground. We all do that. That's why I buy towing insurance every year. It was his inability to cope with problems and consistently poor judgment when something went wrong. On top of it all, he wouldn't listen to the advice of either his navigator (who had long-distance, bluewater experience), or me. It just seemed to me that it was only a matter of time before something bad happened to either the boat or the crew on that long trip.

I was guilty of some of the same bad judgment as the owner-captain. I knew of the engine problems and the undersized sail lacing, but was excited about sailing the old boat, and kidded myself into thinking it would work out. It wasn't until we had already experienced problems along the way, and we were about to sail offshore with a boat and skipper in whom I had no confidence, that reality started to set in.

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 12:05:16

Steve
Well said ....

paulj C310

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 10/03/2007 : 12:29:43

Indeed, sounds like you made the seamanlike decision to me. Fortunately for them things worked out so they didn't end up a Coast Guard story and maybe the $15k repair bill for the engine will give the captain pause to reconsider other aspects of the boat.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2007 : 20:05:30

Hi Steve, miss you on Brookville! Although I didn't make it there too much this summer. Sounds like you are really enjoying retirement. Did their engine fail in Hell's gate? I think that is what they call it. Anyway I like you would have been very excited about that trip. I have always wanted to do the same in reverse. You did make the right decision open ocean in September and Lake Erie in Oct. nothing to mess with if all is not well.

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britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2007 : 21:07:27

Reading this thread give even greater respect for Jims decision to scrub participation in his trip out west. It's so easy to get gung ho about a trip.

Fortunately for me I have the admiral onboard to keep me honest.

Paul

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/10/2007 : 09:01:21

Hi Ray! I miss the folks at Brookville Lake, too, and think of them often, but am really loving it here on the Bay. I've been crewing on other peoples' boats a lot, and next year I'd like to finally get a phrf certificate and try racing my own boat. I finally got her bottom very clean and fast, and have new sails for her and a big telescoping whisker pole that I think I can set up to use to either pole out my genoa or as a spinnaker pole. Also, I want to cruise more next year, and am toying with the idea of taking her to Florida and the Bahamas next fall.

We had one race this year that the folks at Brookville Lake and elsewhere should try. They set up a triangular race course, and, after you crossed the starting line, you had to lock your rudder and steer the boat entirely with the sails and by moving around your crew weight. It was lots of fun and a great learning experience. You were only allowed to use the rudder if you were in danger of running aground or hitting someone or something.

The schooner got past Hell's Gate and partway up the Hudson River before the engine gave out. I don't know exactly where. They had her stored on the hard for the winter.

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 10/11/2007 : 20:53:28

Good to hear from ya. I am just catching up on this association's forum. I noticed your post about the Advanced Costal Nav course. I would highly recommend it. I talked the guys that helped me survey Hanna Creek a few years back into taking that course. There were 6 of us and that was enough to talk one of the local squadrons into offering it. It can't be beat for the price. One of the guys got charged up enough on navigation to search ebay for a sexton and he found a real nice brass one in a wood case for 50 bucks. Every time I see him he updates me on how much closer he is getting to his known position.

Edited by - Ray Seitz on 10/11/2007 20:53:55

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