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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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keel eyebolt

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kjk
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/28/2007 : 20:39:35

I own a 1979 swing keel boat and have a keel eyebolt that has snapped off so that it is impossible to extract it by unscrewing it. I would imagine that to extract the rest from the keel without ruining the threads will not be easy. Anyone have any ideas?

Kevin J. Kiely
Rockport, MA
1999WK
Hull # 407

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 09:28:10

Hi Kevin,

There's a device called an "easy out" that you can use to extract broken bolts. Go to a Lowes, Home Depot, or your local hardware store. They should have just what you need.

The way the "easy out" works is that you drill a small hole in the broken bolt. Then insert the tapered end of the "easy out" into the hole. There are reverse threads on the "easy out" so that when you turn the "easy out" backwards (remember: righty tighty/lefty loosey) the threads dig into the broken bolt and turn it out. Before trying to back the bolt out, you might want to apply some penetrating oil to break down any rust or other corrosion.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 11:16:45

After the penetrating oil and before drilling, give it a little whack with a hammer to loosen the bond of the underlying corrosion. The tool I have (like the one Bill describes) has long, spiral threads so I can tap it into the hole to get a good grip before turning it counterclockwise. It also has a square shank that I clamp a baby vice-grip to.

Best of luck...

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 15:30:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kjk
 I own a 1979 swing keel boat and have a keel eyebolt that has snapped off so that it is impossible to extract it by unscrewing it. I would imagine that to extract the rest from the keel without ruining the threads will not be easy. Anyone have any ideas?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I hate to sound so cynical, but if the eyebolt broke off because the threads are stuck, then an Easy-Out or similar tapered bolt extractor might very well end up making matters worse. (Yes, it's possible for this situation to get worse.) To work as advertised, such a bolt extractor has to be significantly smaller in diameter than the original fastener, and also made of harder metal than the already rather tough eyebolt was. If you over torque the brittle extractor, it will shatter without warning. And you won't be drilling out what's left of that sucker with anything available at your local hardware store!

To reduce the chances of making things worse, I recommend getting that first pilot hole EXACTLY concentric to the broken bolt. Then go up in drill sizes until you reach the minor diameter of the original bolt threads. If you want to stop one drill bit short of that diameter, and try a bolt extractor, just be careful not to break it off in the hole. In selecting drill bit sizes, I suggest you resist the cautious approach of going up in tiny increments. Doing so can cause the bit to dig in and stall the drill, skid the chuck, chip the corners off the bit, or break it off in the hole. Instead, calculate backwards from the desired final diameter so that each bit is about 150% the diameter of the previous one. This allows you to control the feed rate, and prevents the bit from acting like a tap, and pulling itself down the hole to an early death.

If your drilling skills are flawless, and you reach the minor diameter of the threads, then theoretically there should be no cast iron on your drill bit, and nothing left of the bolt but a brittle spiral of threads which can be teased out with something like a dental pick.

If by some chance things don't go quite so well, plan B would be to drill and tap the hole deeper, and use the factory upgrade cable attachment hardware, but with a longer bolt.

Plan C would be to keep drilling the 1/2" hole until it comes out the other side of the keel. Then grind a flat perpendicular face around the exit hole, and install a threaded stainless steel rod through the keel along with the factory upgrade cable attachment hardware.

Happy drilling!

-- Leon S {who has more experience with broken off drills, taps, and extractors than he cares to discuss

}

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 16:53:14

If you go the drilling route, McMcaster Carr has left hand drill bits that might unscrew the broken piece when it grabs at the bottom of the hole, seconds before the drill breaks off.
If mine breaks off, I will bolt two straps to the side to the keel to create a new tounge for the cable.

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Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 17:15:51

I second what Leon suggests. I have worked on cars all my life and every time I tried to take out a bolt with an extractor it broke and left me with a nightmare where I once just had a bad dream.

Try and drill it out as Leon suggests. Often times as you approach the bolt threads with the drill the bolt will disintegrate and you can just pick the pieces out of the hole. Worse case scenario is you end up off center and you can then just drill the hole oversize and insert a helicoil. Extractors might work fine where you shear off a bolt that wasn't frozen to begin with but they will not take the force it takes to loosen a frozen bolt.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 20:25:14

If you can't get it out, just drilling and tapping a new hole an inch above or below the broken bolt wouldn't change the alignment en.ough to make any difference

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kjk
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 20:31:42

It snapped off while the boat was in the water. I don't know what made it do so. It must have happened when the keel was down since I would have noticed (duh) I speculate that the cable wasn't sitting right on the bolt and it snapped off when the cable was winched up.
KJK

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 21:00:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kjk
 It snapped off while the boat was in the water. I don't know what made it do so. It must have happened when the keel was down since I would have noticed (duh) I speculate that the cable wasn't sitting right on the bolt and it snapped off when the cable was winched up.
KJK
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Do you know for sure it was a factory eye?

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2007 : 21:22:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kjk
 It snapped off while the boat was in the water. I don't know what made it do so...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Maybe 29 years in salt water?

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2007 : 11:16:54

Kevin - where is your boat now?
Can you post a picture of the broken eye bolt?

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2007 : 14:29:42

Kevin,

All great solutions to your problem especially abandoning the original site if it becomes overbearing.

Additionally the use of an impact gun would/might help in freeing a recalcitrant bolt.

There have been several instances on this forum where members have succssfully drilled through the keel and ran a S.S.bolt through it front to back. The thought of doing this boggles my mind, but it has been done.

The eyebolt keel cable attachment was a weak point from the word go and Catalina came up with a retrofit kit. My boat came with such a device and it was an improvement over the original.

I wish you every success in your work and would appreciate reports on your progress.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 12/01/2007 : 16:57:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The eyebolt keel cable attachment was a weak point from the word go and Catalina came up with a retrofit kit. My boat came with such a device and it was an improvement over the original.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Can you provide more information? I'm sure I have the original setup and will change it before I put it in the water.

Edited by - on

kjk
1st Mate

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USA
91 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2007 : 06:48:27

The boat is out of the water and on Granite Pier, Rockport, MA. It was not fun getting it out. I'll see if I can post a picture but probably not this weekend. They have Gale warnings posted and snow and rain forecast

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2007 : 11:38:58

Dan,

The EYE bolt was just that an EYE bolt, and they sheared with regularity. The retrofit was an U shaped S.S. unit with a clevis pin running across it into which the keel cable sat. One removed the EYE bolt and sat the U shaped device across the place where last sat the EYE bolt and anchored the U shaped device with an 1/2"bolt with a small pin welded to prevent the bolt unwinding. My bolt pulled out anyway because the bolt's length was marginal and as the threading in the keel oxidized beyond the point of offering sufficiant purchase, KAPOW down came the keel. In total frustration I decided that playing this dumb game had a better solution. I replaced the swing keel and installed the wing retrofit that Catalina offered.

Problem solved

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/02/2007 : 12:52:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob ...I replaced the swing keel and installed the wing retrofit that Catalina offered. Problem solved<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I recall somebody (maybe Val) getting Catalina to ship a wing-keel retrofit kit on a trailer with a new boat, saving some significant part of the shipping cost.

Note from the Catalina 25 Onwer's Manual: "Keeping a retractable-keel model in salt water for lengthy periods is not recommended." Of course, neither is running your hair drier when you're sitting in the bathtub.

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Scumbucket
1st Mate

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USA
53 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2007 : 15:59:18

tinob,

Did you do the retro yourself?

When I called Catalina about this retro they recommended that I find a local dealer to coordinate shipping the retro-kit with a new boat to reduce the shipping costs. If I remember correctly the cost of just the Retro-Kit was about $2200.00.

Does anyone have an estimate on what one would expect to pay for the labor?

To me if you like your boat, and you are concerned about your Swinger then the cost of the retro would be a good investment, if you plan on keeping it.

Am I off base here?

Thanks,

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2007 : 16:20:15

Hi Craig (Scumbucket)... In some areas, especially around salt water, I'd guestimate a wing retrofit would add at least $1000, and possibly as much as $2000 to the resale value of an older C-25. I know it would have been worth that much more to me--in fact, I never looked at swingers when I was in the market for a boat to be kept in a slip on Long Island Sound. (I bought a fin.) So even if somebody wasn't keeping the boat "for the duration", converting for peace-of-mind and reduced maintenance is not an "off base" idea, IMVHO.

BTW, I recall Val had his done... I'm sure he'll be back shortly.

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Scumbucket
1st Mate

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USA
53 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2007 : 23:35:16

Thanks Dave for your opinion, I just know that I like my boat...so for me personally I am going to do the retro-fit at some point and I am leaning toward the winter of 08. And from what I have read performance does not really suffer,add peace of mind and I plan keeping her for the long haul. So I look at it as an "upgrade".

Considering everything we do in life and the costs involved doing them its all a matter of opinion if the cost makes you happy doing whatever floats your boat. No pun intended there :)

I have looked at the C250 and its a sweet boat, but I really like the look and character of the C25. Maybe it is because I am just an old fart. But I really like my boat. Only boat owners can relate to this.

Thanks,

Craig

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2007 : 00:23:57

If you want a wing, then conversion is reasonable. I can't imagine that you would get much back on your investment if you sold it (a wing original would be cheaper), but boating is about what makes you happy, not money.

My real reason for posting is the constant reference to the additional maintenance of a swing keel. I have had two swingers over the last 20 years and replaced lifting cables and attachments every 5 years or so for less than fifty dollars. An encapsulated or barrier coated iron keel with proper zincs is very durable, I have never had more than minor surface corrosion. The keel should be lifted when moored, so only the barrier coated leading edge and the nearly bullet proof bronze pivot assembly are submerged

The EU has banned lead keels (due to heavy metal pollution) for manufacturers in member countries and the replacements are usually encapsulated iron with no ill effects, other than compensating for the lower density. The same thing will probably happen here eventually.

So enjoy the wing when you get it, they made three keels to satisfy different people. Just don't get caught up in the maintenance issue. You will spend more time, energy, and money on Spring waxing and bottom paint than servicing a swinger.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2007 : 06:49:10

Dave, other than a section of the head the entire keel is submerged on a 25 whether up or down. I agree that the mechanism is adequate and not an inherently bad design. I agree the cable and ball maintenance is trivial and the bronze pin and casting are unlikely to fail if inspected annually and maintained as needed. The only keel failure I have personal experience with was an improper galvanized eye replacement failing and a catastrophic failure as a result.

Scum, I went the replacement boat route to get the swinger experience behind me, my 89 has a factory wing. I am not certain that there was ever a time when all three keels were offered, its possible though. Certainly the wing was the next step in shoal draft keel design and the best, followed by shoal keel with centerboard, swinger, and finally WB. The swinger is a very functional design with an emphasis on function; ie function that sucker up, now function it down, now back up! I found the swing experience to detract from my sailing experience due to its extreme depth, the hassle of operating it, complication of the interior and my inability to to be satisfied with owning and maintaining cast iron. If I had a capable dealer locally I might have done the retro wing but as a Kansas boy I did not have that option.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 12/05/2007 09:04:22

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2007 : 09:43:35

Dave B: I see you've recently started berthing Pearl in Pensacola... Let me just say that salt water changes everything, especially for things like steel eye-bolts threaded into cast iron holes. As I recall, Val's keel (on Long Island) fell twice, sinking his boat twice. Leon Sisson's probably never did, but the way he maintains a boat, it's much sounder now than when it was built. I, and apparently Craig, would prefer not to be in an unknown place between those two extremes. Yes, going Frank's way might be sounder financially (and the '89 is really nicer), but Kevin seems to have an affair with his boat. For general purposes in a coastal area, a wing will get significantly more (or sell much faster) than a swing.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2007 : 11:46:28

Thanks Frank, I stand corrected. The retracted keel is below the waterline; on my previous swinger, the lift attachment was above the waterline - you pay an interior price for that benefit.

I whole heartily agree that you should do what makes you comfortable and happy. For good or bad, we have emotional attachment to these silly toys - ya gotta love it so you don't hate it. If you have a failure with a feature you don't like, it will always be a stupid feature. So make a boat exactly what you want, you owe it to both of you. My only issue is that while a new owner must be aware of it, the maintenance on a swinger is really not a big deal.

For myself, a swinger is the perfect setup for coastal cruising. I will switch to a fixed keel if I go off shore in a few years.

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2007 : 11:29:46

Selling my swing keel Cat was never an option for me...couldn't accept handing my problem over to some other sailor and buying a wing. The introduction of the wing retrofit was, as I see it, the manufacturers recognition of a problem many swingers were having. Thankfully they did something about it. They didn't have to. A feather in the cap of a boat manufacturer with an interest in doing the righty thing in spite of the cost to them.

I had a yard do the work for me and as I recall it cost a little over $ 4000 totally. The keel cost aproximately $2000, shipping cost was @ $1000, but having the wings ( I bought two of them, one for the yard owner who also owned a swinger. Shipped piggy back cut that figure in half, and $1500 to make the switch bottom paint included.

At the time I was sailing with two children, one five years old and one a new born. So sailing on a boat with submarine proclivities wasn't an option for me.

I've never beat up on myself for having spent the money. Sailing became a safe/fun thing to do, as it should be.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

Tjarnold
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2007 : 09:11:49

Same thing happened to me last summer. I pulled the boat on to a C27 trailer and had a machine shop come out to extract the bolt. After much drilling, could not extract it. Ended up drilling a new hole and mounting an improved fitting (see catalinadirect.com).

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2007 : 10:04:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 The introduction of the wing retrofit... Sailing became a safe/fun thing to do, as it should be.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sorta like putting an electic starter in a Model T... Almost seems like a shame.

(I, on the other hand, put in a Honda VTEC EFI 225 hp V-6.

)

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