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HIgh wind mainsail trim

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/16/2007 : 10:48:22

Periodically people talk about keeping our boats on their feet. The standard answer is reef, drop the traveler to leeward, and flatten the sail. I have always brought up the alternative of twisting the main and spilling the offending air out of the top, this should be done by hauling the traveler to weather, and playing the vang and mainsheet together to get the right amount of twist. This can be done with a full main or with a reefed main. (If you are doing this with a reefed main then you have usually sent unnecessary crew below and your hatches are battened down!)
Here is a photo of both types of trim, you will note the reefed boat has the traveler down and the sail flattened and the vang on hard, the other boat is twisting off the main. I use this photo as a desktop, if you go to the gallery you can download it at full res.
The second was on another leg where the travelers both seem to be centered but the twist is obvious.

Edited by - Frank Hopper on 12/16/2007 10:53:23

ct95949
Captain

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Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 12:12:42

Great illustration of your point. Obviously in these photos the boat with the twisted main is heeling less but are they both sailing the same speed?

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2007 : 14:25:08

These guys are racing and the reefed guy won but for most of use staying on our feet in 30+ is what we are trying to do. The reefed boat is Kansas Twister '05 National Champion and headed to OKC for '08.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2007 : 14:41:45

Why is the water brown?

Edited by - jerlim on 12/18/2007 14:42:23

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2007 : 15:02:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 Why is the water brown?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Now that is funny. That really is the color of our water most of the time. We are a reservoir in the middle of farmland, our watershed is all cultivated farmland. Our bottom is pure topsoil, if it is really calm for days it gets a shade greener. Our visibility is about 6". Our average depth is 12' and we spend a fair amount of time sailing in under 10', we don't want to see the bottom, it would spoil the illusion. There is no such thing as new clothes or new swimsuits at Lake Cheney. And we love it.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2007 : 18:58:56

Frank if anyone knows how to sail a C25 in high wind it is you. Next time I'm overpowered I'll try the twist off trick. Here, in 30 knots I'd be reefed or double reefed with 110 jib. The ocean would be all whitecaps. We would have 5 foot wind waves at 3 seconds with a cross swell most likely 2 to 4. I'd be thinking about how I am going to manage changing down to my 60% at sea. For sure the autopilot would not be able to hold a good course.

Its amazing to me to see a C25 in 30 knots with 155 and full main.

Of course I don't usually have rail meat other than myself.

Always looking for alternatives to reefing.

Just this past weekend I had my sailing student out for the first time in good, strong wind. We were flying 155 and full main and heeling to about 35 degrees. I tightened outhaul and halyards and hiked. He was at the helm as usual and loving it. He also took a dramamine and did not get seasick. I would estimate wind speed at a steady 15 with few or no gusts.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4306 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2007 : 19:37:43

That looks like the water in Galveston Bay! I tell my friends you can get the same effect by going to your local waste treatment plant.

GaryB
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 12/18/2007 19:38:00

millermg
Navigator

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159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2007 : 00:31:55

We were having a similar discussion a month or so ago aboard a larger boat racing in 30+ winds with Jack Christiansen, our local North Sails rep. He contends reefing will be faster, because with twisting all that sail cloth at the top isn't being used efficiently and creates drag. Reefing (with proper trim) ensures all your sail cloth is being used to create forward motion.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2007 : 08:49:41

Highly debatable... Twisting off also leaves more sail area down low where it can generate more drive with less heeling leverage, and you immediately have a full main when you turn downwind. Reefing reduces sail area proportionately at all levels and leaves you with less sail downwind. What do the super-boats (AC, etc.) do? I don't think I've seen an AC boat reefed, even in Freemantle. The Open XXs do it, tho--probably because their "legs" sometimes go thousands of miles. I've sailed for a couple of miles close to a reefed C-25 in 15-18 knots, where I was unreefed and twisted a little (and wishing I'd reefed, for my guests)... He was running a 110 and I had rolled my 135 down a little... We were dead-even, althoughI gained a little in the slight lulls by heading down just a hair. How the condition of our sails and bottoms compared I don't know. (The old saying--two boats on the same tack on the same body of water...)

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2007 : 09:40:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by millermg
 We were having a similar discussion a month or so ago aboard a larger boat racing in 30+ winds with Jack Christiansen, our local North Sails rep. He contends reefing will be faster, because with twisting all that sail cloth at the top isn't being used efficiently and creates drag. Reefing (with proper trim) ensures all your sail cloth is being used to create forward motion.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I recommend this for control, not speed. I do it reefed sometimes if I am on a beam reach at 30+, the point is to reduce heel, not point, not go fast. When "staying on your feet" is what matters it is a great tool.

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2007 : 10:44:37

Frank--I have to admit I've always been a fan of reefing early and often. That's the grandmother in me. But I am interested in your twisting off, because I also believe in "sailing her on her feet". Could you be a little more explicit in the part about "playing the mainsheet and the vang together to get the right amount of twist." This appears to me to be a very practical way of keeping tensions to a minimum with guests aboard. And of course, making it a little easier on the skipper. Thanks.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2007 : 12:40:12

There are only two ways to keep your mainsail up in heavy winds before reefing: the fisherman's reef and Franks "do the twist!"

The fisherman's reef is essentially letting your mainsail out so that it deliberately begins to get back-winded by the jib. It's called a fisherman's reef because, you guessed it, the fishermen used it instead of reefing while fishing. It slows the boat some, but not much. It's used if when heading upwind for short periods you intend to head off or downwind shortly thereafter and don't feel like reefing and then hoisting full sail again.

Frank's twist does the same thing in a slightly different way. By popping the vang, raising the boom and playing with the traveler, it eliminates the flatness in the mainsail which one would normally induce in heavier winds. It may not even slow the boat at all. It puts a fisherman's reef in the top of the sail. With little jib material way up there, it doesn't back-wind much, if at all.

That said, given the masthead rig and the fact that the jib is the driver on a C25, anything that can reduce heel is welcome in heavy winds.

Steps to follow when it gets too windy: try the fisherman's reef or Frank's twist, then reef.

Many of us sail on jib alone as well, which reduces heeling even more than having any main up in heavy wind, although with a reefed main and a jib, the heeling isn't much different than with just a jib. Of course, the size of the jib has a lot to do with it. Those with large jibs in heavy winds either use their roller reefing gear (not furling, reefing gear) or sail on main alone, which is slower, but usually more upright.

"Playing the mainsheet and vang" means just that. Pop the vang and release the mainsheet. Then play with them.

When it's windy, there is usually no way to "reduce tension" in the guests unless the skipper is calm, comfortable and lets them join in on the fun!

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 12/19/2007 12:44:30

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2007 : 12:59:47

Looking at the pictures, it appears the main thing the boats did to keep them on their feet is to come off the wind a bit.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2007 : 20:15:48

My experience suggests that a full 130 alone, compared to full main alone, generates more speed (as Stu says) and with less heel, which I think is pretty well explained by the sailplan schematic. (More sail down lower, less up high.) Also, while the main alone seems to point better, I found it produced distinctly more leeway (probably because of the speed deficit), so the 130 alone probably was able to sail to weather at least as well. With a roller furler, it's a great way to have a comfortable, hassle-free ride on a blustery day. (Of course, that's not what the guys in the pictures are trying to do...)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/19/2007 20:17:37

frants
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 01/12/2008 : 16:17:17

Hi Frank,
Great pictures! The full main is cool, but what does playing the vang mean? The traveller is up and the vang is...?
Thank you for the hint.
Frants

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2008 : 01:27:13

The vang is set to provide the desired leech twist, what setting that will be depends on the conditions and how much air you want to dump out of the top. I call settling on the variables of that equation "playing".

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crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2008 : 17:11:42

Frank--Looking at the color of your water reminds me that I used to sail out of New Orleans on Lake Pontchartrain. Pontchartrain is, on average, about 12 feet deep, and looks pretty much like Lake Cheney. It is generally a light air venue, but like anyplace else, it can blow up. One of the long time sailors there said that Pontchartrain "wave action" was about the same thing you would get if you took a saucer full of water and gave it a good shake. Cheney looks about the same.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2008 : 18:56:03

I just made your first pic above my desktop. Thanks.

Edited by - on

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