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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Roller Furler Sail Question

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/13/2008 : 22:36:07

What is luff foam? I've heard good and bad things about having it on your sail but never an explanation of what it's made of (foam?) or what it does? Is it good to have on your roller furling sail or is it better to go with just the Sunbrella UV protection?

Thanks in advance!

GaryB
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

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GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 05:43:35

I am not fully briefed on this as well. But my new 150 Genoa from Quantum will have a foam luff and it is shown in the sketch they provided me. From what the guy explained to me at Quantum, it is along the furling edge and is widest half way up the sail. It supposedly helps furl the sail and believe is beneficial for those that may frequently find a need to partially furl the sail. I am sure others will have the full story. It does cost a bunch extra. It can add $200-$300 to the cost of the sail.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 07:00:57

Gary, a foam luff is a strip or two of foam along the leading edge of the jib, sewn into a pocket in the sail. Its purpose, as Larry alludes, is to help better shape the sail when it is partially furled. Without the foam luff, when you partially roll/furl the jib, it looses its aerodynamic shape and becomes inefficient. If you're only going to use the sail fully unrolled, you don't need the foam, but it's very helpful if you expect to sail with it furled somewhat regularly. That's why racers who have roller furling jibs (hard core racers usually don't have roller furling) don't use the foam.

When Jim Scott of Scott Sails built my jib, he strongly recommended luff foam, because he knows what kind of sailing I do. That's one advantage of using a local sailmaker you can actually talk to about your needs.

Foam luff is completely unrelated to Sunbrella protection -- that goes on the other two edges of the sail. You definitely want the Sunbrella (or equivalent) to protect your sail when rolled up.

Edited by - Even Chance on 01/14/2008 07:04:44

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 16:51:24

From a sailmaker web site:

"Foam Luffs - Having a foam-filled luff goes a long way toward creating a decent sail shape once the sail is reefed. The luff pad is usually a sewn-in piece of closed-cell foam that runs the length of the luff of the sail, tapering toward the head and tack, with its widest portion halfway up the luff. As you take the first turn on the roller furler, the foam luff rolls up and bulks in the middle of the forestay. With each successive turn, the added bulk removes shape from the sail, thereby flattening it, or at least stopping it from getting full."

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 17:59:11

Okay, I gotta ask. The only reason I can imagine furling the foresail is because of high winds. If that is the case you are already at hull speed so you can furl the sail and minimize the effects of the wind speed. Why would you care what the shape is of the sail if you already have so much wind your having to reef? That was the explanation I was given when I inquired about it from Cruising Direct. If your racing a large racing boat it may come into play but with a boat with a 6 knot hull speed its affect is negligible.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 18:50:13

Thank you for your responses!

A couple new questions come to mind based on your ansers. Does the foam effect the efficiency of the sail when it is fully deployed vs a sail with no foam?

Since I bought the boat in October the winds on Galveston Bay seem to average 9 knots with gusts to 13 or so on a fairly regular basis. I would expect that during summer the winds could be much lower. I currently have 110 and 150 hank-on sails. Should I go with a 150 roller furler or a 135?

GaryB
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - on

Tom Potter
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1913 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 19:08:27

Gary,
You might want to also look at the rope luff. Many sail makers are now using rope instead of foam. Some say that the rope last longer than the foam.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2008 : 19:43:35

The rope looks like the next generation of fat luffs. My sailmaker, Gary Swenson at Ullman Ventura, talked me out of using anything on my 135. Being smaller than the 150, flatter than the 150 and less likely to need reefing because of the reduced sail area, the sail gets along very well without the fat luff. Speaking of a Sunbrella UV cover, my sailmaker also convinced me to use sacrificial Dacron instead. His reasons were a better sail shape and UV covers need maintenance every 5 years or so anyway so a person might just as well replace Dacron on that schedule and enjoy a better looking sail that has better sail shape as well. If I had a 150 I would have a fat luff and look hard at the rope idea.

Brooke, that was a great first post.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2008 : 16:07:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Frank Hopper

Brooke, that was a great first post.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Gee, thanks, I feel almost like I had 983 chances to practice.

Gary, I would strongly recommend that you talk to local sailors about what winds they encounter in your area, and see what hardware they use on their boats and why. There's such difference between the Chesapeake and SF Bay and Lake Cheney, and LI Sound that those of us who sail elsewhere would just be recommending to you what works for us without knowing what would work best for you.

Edited by - Even Chance on 01/15/2008 16:12:50

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 22:26:11

OK, looks like time to replace 110 headsail. Most of the experts say a foam or rope luff is not needed for a 135 which I am looking at. A 150 might be a different story. With either foam or rope luff, the sailmakers have said you will not be able to point as high but there is debate as to which product is better. I probably will not go with either, as I don't see a need to reef headsail very often.

I read Franks post re sunbrella vs Dacron UV cover. I have understood sunbrella is far superior and question this as the 2 quotes I am looking at, one, FX sails, includes the sunbrella cover for under $700(due to a 10% discount as a member in this Association) or $760(I believe plus tax) with Dacron UV cover from Ullman Sails. I had not heard the argument of a better sail shape using Dacron but I can see it stands to reason, I suppose.

Although I am not in a rush, Ullman can ship immediately, while FX will take 3-4 weeks. Being in SoCal and that Ullman is located in Ventura, CA, I do prefer to buy local. Unfortunately North Sails is over $1000 as others are.

Your input appreciated in advance.

Steve A

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 05:18:19

A sailmaker told me that Sunbrella does not stretch the way Dacron does, and therefore Sunbrella strips on the sail cause it to "cup" somewhat as it stretches. It also appears to me Sunbrella adds more bulk to the leech and foot, which might create drag. My Dacron-protected sail appeared to be more compactly rolled than sails with Sunbrella on neighboring boats, but that might have been because of how they were rolled up. The Dacron strips are not just sacrificial--they're treated with some kind of UV protection. However, if you click my signature picture, you can see my 10-year-old sail was looking a little gray at the edges. (Replacing the strips would have cost me the majority of the price of a new sail.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/16/2009 05:26:22

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 07:19:37

While you may not reef the 110 you may want to reef/furl a 135. Much bigger sail on a 250. Personally I'd get the sail set up so that it can be furled a bit and maintain some good shape.

Edited by - on

cks
Navigator

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126 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 07:33:32

The only reason I can imagine furling the foresail is because of high winds. If that is the case you are already at hull speed so you can furl the sail and minimize the effects of the wind speed. Why would you care what the shape is of the sail if you already have so much wind your having to reef?

i furl the headsail when i think the boat's being overpowered and in danger of rounding up. the boat actually slows down when it's being overpowered.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 08:29:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 Okay, I gotta ask. The only reason I can imagine furling the foresail is because of high winds. If that is the case you are already at hull speed so you can furl the sail and minimize the effects of the wind speed. Why would you care what the shape is of the sail if you already have so much wind your having to reef? That was the explanation I was given when I inquired about it from Cruising Direct. If your racing a large racing boat it may come into play but with a boat with a 6 knot hull speed its affect is negligible.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I generally agree with Cruising Direct that rope or foam luff padding isn't as important on a smaller boat with smaller sails, but I disagree that you shouldn't be concerned with sail shape.

Sail shape is not only relevant to a sailboat's speed, but also to it's ability to point to weather. A baggy sail doesn't point nearly so well as a flatter, well-shaped sail. But, that having been said, as a general rule a bigger sail will have a deeper draft. Thus, on a smaller sail, such as a 130, the rope or foam luff padding isn't as important to sail shape as it is on a 150. When I bought a new 140% jib for my boat, I didn't get the padding, and believe I still have reasonably good sail shape and pointing ability with it partially furled.

Roller furling headsails are cruising sails. You can't reasonably expect them to perform as well as racing sails. Their small size and less-than-perfect shape is the compromise that cruisers make for the convenience of roller furling jibs. Rope or foam luffs probably help improve the shape of big jibs, but diminish in their usefulness as the size of the sail diminishes.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 11:04:54

As North sails explained to me - another reason to consider a rope luff. When the foam wears out you have to send your sail in to a loft and have them remove and replace the foam. With a rope luff, you simply remove the rope from the pocket and replace it with a similar size rope.

Similarly, if you replace your sail you can swap your luff rope, which may outlast the sail, into the new sail. It will save some cost of the sail.

I have a rope luff on both my 110 and 135 gennies. While I have never had a foam luff sail and therfore cannot compare the two, I have been happy with my sail performance with the rope. It was much less expensive than the foam luff so that is also a plus.

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