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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/18/2008 : 12:05:09

You've undoubtedly noticed that every fixed-mount VHF radio sold today supports Digital Selective Calling (DSC), which includes a Distress button that automatically transmits a distress call with your vessel ID, distress type, and position (if the radio is hooked up to a GPS). The theory is that the USCG and any other DSC-equipped vessels in the area will receive that information. That's the theory...

However, it turns out that the USCG has only implemented its "Rescue 21" system in a few places--according to the USCG site, they are:

Atlantic City, NJ
Eastern Shore, VA
Mobile, AL
St. Petersburg, FL
Seattle, WA
Port Angeles, WA

Their website link to a "Schedule" page, which is supposedly a map with dates, is broken. So I e-mailed them to see what the plan was for my area. Their response was the following:

Boston - October 2010
SE New England - April 2010 (That's me.)
Northern NE - July 2010

I can't report on other parts of the country--you might want to make your own inquiry.

The "implementation" includes connecting the DSC equipment to the database of MMSI numbers (that you get by registering with BoatUS) and vessel data, as well as a number of other equipment upgrades. The USCG did not comment on whether they have picked up off-the-shelf DSC radios so that if somebody pushes the button, they'll be aware of it... Seems like a reasonable idea...

However, their website specifically says they won't. They also didn't comment on my observation that many boaters are not aware that DSC distress calling is not supported in their areas, much less the schedules for doing so--I wasn't until warned by a friend, who only had it as a rumor.

Anyway, I can forget about my panic button for a while... If I'm in serious trouble, I'll make a standard Mayday call on Ch. 16. My message to you is, don't assume you can raise the USCG in an emergency by pushing that button on your new radio. Other DSC radios in your area will sound an alarm and display your position, but the USCG might not hear you.

Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
Past member and DPO of C-25 #5032
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing) and posting as "Stinkpotter".

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/18/2008 12:27:14

piseas
Former Treasurer

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Response Posted - 01/18/2008 : 12:38:18

Dave, I am shocked! But not really, if you know what I mean. I have no idea. I could not find the link to scheduled areas but did find this statement:
Starting with Sector New York in November 2007 through August 2008, one Rescue 21 sector will become operational per month.
Makes it sound like there are only 8 sectors and last one will be completed 8-08, but who knows. Thanks for the heads up.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 01/18/2008 12:38:38

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/18/2008 : 12:45:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 ...did find this statement:
Starting with Sector New York in November 2007 through August 2008, one Rescue 21 sector will become operational per month.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'm pretty sure that statement is "outdated." Originally, they expected to be done by 2006. Now, according to the Homeland Security site, it's 2011. They have something over 40 "regions."

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/18/2008 12:48:57

piseas
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Response Posted - 01/21/2008 : 16:14:37

Dave, again, no surprise there. I was gonna go purchase a new GPS to hook it up to, but no reason now, right!
Steve A

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2008 : 18:24:30

Well, any other boat with a DSC radio will see your coordinates on their screen... That couldn't hurt if you're in big trouble. Anyway, that's just one small reason for having a GPS.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/22/2008 : 08:29:38

It's all about funding and right now our government is interested in a whole lot of other places than here. And boaters are even lower on the list - look at the pathetic condition the Army Corps of Engineers have let the ICW get to. Sorry, (call it political and delete it) but it's true. Recently they wanted to turn off Single Side Band weather grib files which are essential for true offshore work. Yes, you can get skymate, or Chris Parker, or Herb, or XM which has limited coverage, or a sat phone, but this system works and cruisers depend on it.

BTW - we love www.passageweather.com - but it only works when we are on land or up to 10 miles offshore. We are looking into a sat phone just for weather.

In my opinion, DSC was a gimic designed to sell folks new radios. Few people have registered their radios and all they do where they are covered is generate silly Pan Pan's when some guys kid lifts the hatch and pushes the button. If your vessel is so flimsy that you can't do a standard distress call you should A: buy another boat, B: not be out there C: get an EPIRB. We have a McMurdo G5 SmartFind Plus which operates on both 406 mhz and 121.5 mhz and gets a GPS fix in 60 seconds after deployment. It must be registered and the registration sticker must be displayed. You register with NOAA and must reapply every 2 years. Every DSC radio should come with the same regs - other than that it won't work even when it's fully operational. Coasties will be running all over the place looking for nothing.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine, FL

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2008 : 11:57:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...Every DSC radio should come with the same regs - other than that it won't work even when it's fully operational. Coasties will be running all over the place looking for nothing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Just one more reason for an education requirement for every boat operator--rules-of-the-road, equipment, basic navigation, and handling emergencies. When other people's lives depend on a "skipper" in an unforgiving environment (water), he/she should know what they're doing, including how to get help in a bad situation. The radio user's guide just doesn't do it. And they can't just walk away.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/22/2008 : 12:14:55

Amazingly enough Boat US and all of the mags are against education requirements - read license - for boaters. My wife often jokes that the coasties should just get over their bad selves and paint the red stripe on my boat already. "US Coast Guard, this is the vessel _____ we are at marker 23, there is fog, can you give us a compass heading to _____ Marina?" Actual radio call in Narragansett Bay. More owners than captains. New Rules: Unless you actually know what you are doing you should be called "skip" not Cap'n. I am often amazed by boaters, even some here, who have never taken the time to learn even the basics by reading Chapman or SOMETHING!!!! You can't just walk away and I have learned that a C25 is harder to operate in difficult conditions than a larger vessel. It's a starter boat for some, but knowing which lights to run when, when to sound a bell in the fog, knowing how to anchor even if you are a dock person, keeping the radio on and knowing how to do a mayday, or a securite' or a pan pan even. How many here know to inspect and lube your turnbuckles twice a year? It's an educated crowd for sure but I'd only guess 65%.

I'll get off of my soapbox now. Oh good, someone brought me a ladder. Climbing down now.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine, FL

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2008 : 13:15:26

BoatUS is against it because they're an INSURANCE MARKETING COMPANY (I know--not the underwriter) and want to keep their CUSTOMERS. It's like AARP being for a prescription drug program that benefits insurance companies--guess what: that's what they are. (Non-profit advocacy... Ya, right.) The trouble is, most of the people who are injured or killed in boating mishaps aren't BoatUS customers. But they may well have been relying on one who reserved his right to be ignorant.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/22/2008 13:19:14

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/22/2008 : 14:46:52

I am a fan of DSC. The point is not how sturdy the boat is or how skilled the captain is. You want the lowest denominator to work. On our boat that is the Admiral and crew. They don't have the same love of electronics and boating skills that I do. If I get hurt or fall overboard then I want them to push the DSC button so help can be on the way. If there is an emergency on the boat then I want to hit the button and work on fixing the emergency, not talking on the VHF. It is the same reason that we now have E-911. Make the call and help is on the way.

If people abuse it then fine them big $$. I am also a fan of mandatory licensing for boat operation including sailboats. It is not Big Brother. It is responsibility.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/22/2008 14:48:30

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/22/2008 : 15:09:53

Randy: I'm with you, but it won't work here. Are you covered by one of those WA locations? If you're not sure, don't tell your Admiral that she just has to push the button--it might be that nobody will know. Also, after you push it, you're expected to respond to the CG on 16.

I'm preparing a VHF Radio Guide for my boat, with detailed instructions for making various calls:
- Life-threatening emergency
- Non-life-threatening trouble
- To TowBoatUS
- To a bridge operator
- To another boat or marina

...with the information about my boat, where to find the lat-lon, BoatUS #, radio controls, etc. I'll laminate it and affix it somewhere in the helm area. I had a "push the button" section, but have now deleted it. This is for anyone who might have to get help if I can't. I'll have my First Mate read it and practice with routine calls (bridges, etc.).

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/22/2008 15:15:57

piseas
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Response Posted - 01/22/2008 : 16:48:54

Dave, guess the insurance companies are also figure their losses from inept insureds are less what they would lose in business if we were required to take some sort of education class.
I am curious how many of us have not taken any class. Doubt any one would fess up.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/22/2008 : 23:13:30

Dave, I like your idea of a simple card with directions for crew to make various emergency calls.

Rescue 21 is online on Port Angeles, WA and Seattle, WA that covers my San Juans cruising grounds. Here is a map of the coverage in the Puget Sound area. [url="http://www.uscg.mil/rescue21/news/images/R21-SeattlePortAngeles.JPG"]DSC Coverage[/url] I feel lucky.

Here is what the Coast Guard Rescue 21 site says:

However, you can help us improve response time by using a marine-band radio equipped with digital selective calling (DSC). If properly registered with a Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI) number and interfaced with GPS, the DSC radio signal transmits vital vessel information, position, and the nature of distress (if entered) at the push of a button. In an emergency, one push of a button and your DSC radio will send an automated digital distress alert containing your MMSI number and position to other DSC-equipped vessels and rescue facilities. DSC will provide a quicker and more accurate response by the Coast Guard.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/22/2008 23:25:56

Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 08:29:11

FYI...

I started taking the Canadian VHF course last night. The instructor spent a lot of time talking about DSC and how it operates. I mentioned some of the information on this thread and he admitted that Canada also does not have full coverage, but that Lake ontario is covered by the CCG and so is Georgian Bay (Our local cruising waters). Most inland lakes including Lake Simcoe (my lake) are not yet covered, but they will be very soon - he couldn't give a date, but has seen the schedule and will return me an answer.

Another important fact that was brought up is that if you buy a used radio with DSC, be sure that it is registered to your boat. It would suck if you had a heart attack and your crew hit the button, then the coasties came hunting for the bayliner that used to own the radio.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 08:56:14

"I am curious how many of us have not taken any class. Doubt any one would fess up.
Steve A"

Steve A I'll fess up. I bought a Pearson 30 in SoCal when I was in college and was a sneak aboard for a couple of years in Marina del Ray. My sailing experiece consisted of taking out a Rhodes 19 a couple of times. Since that time, I have logged hundreds of hours on board, and even more hours reading every book and mag possible to improve my knowledge, but I have not taken a single class. Failure is not an option when sailing and while you may not know everything when you start out, you need to at least know a few basics and then commit the time to add to that knowledge base.

Randy - while I agree with you that DSC is cool, it is not a substitute for an Admiral knowing how to use the radio in an emergency. Coasties are just not going to deploy assets without confirmation of a distress call. If you have ever heard a distress call or been involved in a rescue, you will know that they are painfully slow to respond until they know how much lint is in your naval area (pun intended). They want to know how many persons are on board, the nature of your distress, the lenght of your vessel, your draft, wave heights, wind speed and direction, etc... Pushing a button just doesn't quite cut it. Get an EPIRB if you want to push buttons that bring the boys out to save you.

We have posted instructions such as Dave suggested including the Alphabet. SV Lysistrata - Lima, Yankee, Sierra, India, Sierra, Tango, Romeo, Alfa, Tango, Alfa. Why? Because when it blows and you are trying to tell the Coasties the name of your vessel it can be hard for them to copy the name.

Be a Cap'n and not a "Skipper." Make sure that the Admiral knows how to do a proper radio call. I don't care if they are disinterested, it could save a life. Case in point, there are at least two widows out there who made distress calls when there hubby's were having heart attacks and all they heard was static because the squelch was up and they did not know what to do. Noone could help because the deceased didn't teach the wife how to do anything.

On my C25 and on our current vessel, I will give a guest the complete rundown of the vessel including all of the "what ifs?" If you don't you are ignorant of basic seamanship. Have at least one other person know where the fire extinguishers are, how to operate the bilge pump, how to operate the radio in an emergency, how to tell someone your location, (I always review the chart with my guests just so they know where they are and where they are going), how to spill wind form the sails, (easy just teach em to let everything go), how to start the engine, and finally - where the med kit is. Took less than 10 minutes on average on my C25, and takes only a minute or two more on Lysistrata. AND, it gets people involved, lets them conquer their fears a bit. Knowledge is power. I always let the guest (newbie) drive us out of the harbor. Gets them feeling in control and noone ever gets seasick.

Back to the Admiral and pushing buttons. PLEASE, teach your Mate something. They might actually embrace sailing rather than be intimidated. First time I took my wife out on our C25 we were in 15-20 knots and I put it all out. Put her at the helm and explained how it all worked. She was from Kansas and had never been on a boat before in her life. Oh, except Frank Hoppers boat, LOL!!! Today, she can handle just about any boat in the 30-50 foot range and is nearly as good as a captain as myself. What's the secret? Education.

You don't get that by pushing any buttons.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine, FL

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 09:05:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Here is what the Coast Guard Rescue 21 site says: ...DSC will provide a quicker and more accurate response by the Coast Guard.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Here is also what it says:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">DSC emergency signals will only be received by the Coast Guard when Rescue 21 is fully operational in your area. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So, until 2010, only private vessels with new radios will hear me if I push the button. The USCG says they will hear nothing (since the signal goes out on Ch. 70 and is unintelligible except to a DSC radio, which they could buy from the West Marine half a mile from their station).

One more thing: Read the manual. Your DSC radio does not transmit a distress call with one push of the button. Carefully read about the steps required, and then write them down and keep them where anyone can access them in an emergency. And if your Admiral/First Mate knows nothing else about operating your boat, they should know how to make a distress call on your radio.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/23/2008 09:13:01

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 12:58:55

Of course the Admiral and crew should know how to operate the boat and VHF. But that does not take away from the fact that Rescue 21 DSC technology is a great advance. It is operational in my cruising area. Simplifying emergency communications and providing detailed information such as the boat name, description and location automatically is an important thing and a major advancement. The less you need to know and do in an emergency, the better. As BoatUS says "It takes the search out of search and rescue."

The mention of EPIRBs is interesting. As the cost of EPIRBs continues to decrease they represent a true push-for-help technology. I expect many boats to have EPIRBs to simplify emergency calling even more.

DSC not only contacts the Coasties but it alerts other DSC-equipped boats in your area and gives your location. If I get such as signal on my VHF I will go see if the other person needs help.

BoatUS has a good site about DSC including an online tutorial that is well done. Check it out. [url="http://www.boatus.com/mmsi/"]DSC[/url]

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/23/2008 13:16:27

John Russell
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Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 13:14:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
[br... she can handle just about any boat in the 30-50 foot range and is nearly as good as a captain as myself. What's the secret? Education.

You don't get that by pushing any buttons.

Sten

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sten's right.

But, not to put too fine a point on it, but what really is needed is TRAINING along with education. The difference here is experience. Typically, adults learn by doing -- hence the phrase experiential learning. Training includes a practical component. Get them to actually use the devices. Don't just get them to read about them or listen to you lecture or watch you demonstrate.

Edited by - on

piseas
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Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 13:41:47

Everyone has great stuff to say. Some stuff I have not done, in fact didn't even consider, that I will NOW do. One of the things I will NOW do, is to turn on my radio and set to channel 16. I usually leave it off.
Also I think I will get one of those p touch printers to stick instructions throughout.
So thanks to you all. This is very important stuff to increase our chances of survival and to become better sailors and captains.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 01/23/2008 13:48:28

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 15:16:53

Spend any time cruising and you will find that the majority of true sailors will never hit their EPIRB unless they are in the raft. Even then, most have a healthy respect for the fact that the Coasties will not always come and get you. Period. If your pretty boat is going to run aground and you are scared, you can't hit the EPIRB. Life and death only please. I know, they are getting cheaper - but please don't buy one unless you are really going offshore and know what you are doing. The Coasties have two rules about coming out to save your ass. Loss of life and loss of property in that order. They'll scuttle your boat before they tow it if you are really out there.

We have DSC and we have heard the pings before, so we do know that it works. But then what? All of the pings we got from fellow boaters with DSC's turned into false alarms. Hitting the stupid button only generates silly pan pans...

And finally, I am glad that you are gonna listen to your radio ALL THE TIME! I did a delivery on a Pacific Seacraft 37 from Annapolis to Maine where the owner hated the radio and refused to turn it on becasue it scared his kids. Just off of Coney Island we saw a small 22 footer cut across our bow in near Gale conditions. The owner had plotted a course very near marked shoals and I was just coming up. I ordered the radio on thinking that the 22 footer was trying to warn us of something. I even hailed them to check. 10 minutes later they issued a MayDay as they were way in over their heads and apparently their engine got swamped. We participated in the search for their vessel and they were rescued. The owner has now nicknamed the radio the "Sten" and is teaching his kids to not be afraid of it anymore. I even leave 16 on while just hanging on a hook or a ball. Never know when you can help a fellow sailor.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine, FL

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 16:01:58

Geej Red, Everyone on here is going to think I'm your mentee or something...

On our Basic Sail course I had the same conversation with the instructor. He offered this advice - "Do you want ot listen to me teach, or that thing squawk. He left the radio off for the full course while we blithely salied around the bay. After that comment, everything else I learned from him was taken as advice and not as instruction.

I have the good fortune to have been in Sea Cadets as a kid (not sure they have that in the States - its a military sponsored organization to get kids to think about joining the Navy while they are in High School). With them I spend the summer I was 16 cruising the Straits of Juan de Fuca on the west coast with "real Navy Guys". I learned a lot of good things from them not the least of which was to keep a radio watch at all times, even if you don't know all the perfect things to say. In a life and death situation, the coasties would rather have someone to lean on than no one.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 19:05:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Hitting the stupid button only generates silly pan pans...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually, depressing the button for 5 seconds provides the Coast Guard with your boat name, description and exact location as well as other data. The CG then comes on channel 16 to get the specifics of the situation. Activating DSC also alerts other boats in your area that there is a problem and gives them your exact location as well so that they can assist if needed.

Of course, it only works in the areas that have been implemented.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/23/2008 19:08:25

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/23/2008 : 20:07:50

Understood. But having been in areas where it is served and in areas not served I have found that it only generates silly pan pans.... So far, I have not heard of one documented rescue using DSC only. Correct me if I am wrong.

sten

Edited by - on

piseas
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Response Posted - 01/24/2008 : 16:44:41

I'll bet Coasties don't keep track either.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 01/24/2008 16:46:04

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 01/24/2008 : 21:44:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...So far, I have not heard of one documented rescue using DSC only...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It was never intended to be used as "DSC only." Your radio sends out the digital signal on Ch. 70, automatically switches to 16, and the CG (theoretically) calls you on 16 to discuss the situation. But if they haven't implemented in your area, they don't get the Ch. 70 signal, so you must initiate a Mayday call on 16.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 01/25/2008 : 07:41:08

Precisely my point Dave, just didn't verbalize it properly. Even if DSC works in your area, you will still have to talk to the Coasties. ON 16... It's only cool function is relaying your coordinates if hooked up to a GPS. Even then, I'll bet money that the Coasties will ask for your coordinates again.

Sten

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.