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Man overboard !

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/23/2008 : 18:35:20

New thread from lightning danger...

Thinking about the several thunderstorms I've experienced while sailing, I must confess that kind of overwhelming natural force is truly frightening.

But I think there are many more occasions when sailors are in imminent danger of death by falling overboard in cool or cold water. I have read lots of accounts of lightning danger, but I feel a much greater need to take proactive steps to prevent man overboard accidents and to be ready to handle MOB events if they occur.

These stories about such disasters in all kinds of boats and situations had a sobering effect on me, and they may make interesting February reading for others here:

[url="http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/lifesling_history.htm"]Crew overboard stories[/url]

I acquired a lifesling and hoist along with my C25, and I have it mounted and ready to deploy.

Have you rescued crew or guests with your flotation equipment?

Happy and safe sailing to all.

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

Edited by - JohnP on 02/26/2008 12:00:31

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 18:44:43

We've practiced with inanimate objects, and willing human subjects....but not when the water is dangerously cold.
It is a real eye-opener when you try to get a person on board that is not capable of assisting.
This is where the C250's open transon would be preferable.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 02/23/2008 : 22:52:29

After reading a bunch of those stories, I may contemplate not sailing and just sit by the window in a rocking chair. Much safer !

I always wear my inflatable preserver. But if something serious happens out there one of these winter days that I sail....then I have pretty much had it. Doubtful I would last long in the cold waters.

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 00:32:07

My Brother-in-law and I had to use every bit of our strength to pull a small woman up over the side of the C25 as we could not both help to bring her up over the stern. She had been on a turtled sailboat with her husband and use every bit of her strength just to get to us as we came to help. I now use my inflatable vest with a harness and have the life sling at the ready. Since I do a lot of sailing alone I would not be able to get someone up into the boat without the life sling. I would have to leave them or drag them until more help came or to a dock with help even there. I have the set up to have the best chance to help save someone which could be one of my own family. A boat patrol person told me everyone should be wearing a PDF so at least it would be easier to find the body. We enjoy our boating which is very forgiving but if you do everything wrong perfectly the penalty is death. The Forum gives us a chance to remind ourselves of the list so it is kept to a minimum and we go on to enjoy our passion. May we all have a short list.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 07:40:59

From the other side of the gunwhale...

Last year I was in the beautiful, clear, warm water off of Molasses Reef here in Florida, thinking I was holding a fender secured by long line to the boat. The very strong current dragged me away from our boat and that's when I found the floating line does not like getting knotted! Adrift wearing full snorkle gear (including lifevest) and heading away rapidly.

After what seemed ages of trying to swim back against the current (I knew I was not getting anywhere as I was able to see the ocean bottom clearly and it was heading the wrong way.)
I made my way across the current to a small powerboat downstream with several people onboard. They offered to help me aboard their small boat.

So picture this.
The boat was crowded, only had about 2' freeboard and they would have had to drag me over the gunwhale, remember, I was pretty exhausted at this stage. The thought of getting grabbed, pulled, dragged, bumped, bruised and more, bits of me getting entangled with whatever little snaggers were on the side of the boat. Not a pleasant thought, so I asked them to tow me back to JD rather than try to pull me out. The water was warm and i had a good hold on the boat.

In different circumstances you know that I would welcome the offer to get dragged out of the water whatever the physical cost.

Like others in this thread, we wear our Auto/Manual inflatable PFDs, but don't have teathers yet. Our boats step-through transom makes boarding from the water easy, but an exhausted or incapacitated POB would be almost impossilbe to get onboard without a hoist.

Has anyone actually used the boom as a hoist?
I could see using a halyard on a winch with two people remaining onboard, but a lone person would still have a tough job.

Mentally walking through the process:
Floating lump in the water.
Use boat hook to pass a line though their PFD straps (we have the mooring buddy so that would not be too difficult)
Snap the halyard into a block on the side of the boom.
Haul up using the winch.
Use the mainsheet to pull the boom in towards the boat.
Lump bumping over the side, aft of the cabin, lifelines released, into the cockpit.

Is that tackle up to it?

Paul

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 09:06:41

As a frequent first responder, I always put on my pfd before venturing out. I have never fallen overboard my own vessel, but I have when aboard someone else's boat in a crisis. When not wearing a pfd and wearing one of those fleece jackets, I was unable to pull myself into my Zodiac inflatable without assistance. Since then I have emergency boarding ladders for my vessel and for my dink. We also have a four to one purchase block and tackle specifically devoted to man overboard recovery, and we know how to use it.

If you are sailing with only one crew member and they go over, your winches will be helpful if the victim is unable to make it back aboard, but attaching block and tackle to a halyard and then using the 4/1 to pull victim back aboard is much easier and puts you where you want to be - mid ships.

Think with a "oh ***" frame of mind. If you did not have the block and tackle and the victim was unconscious or unable to assist in their own recovery, what would you do? NEVER leave your vessel! PERIOD. Now you have two swimmers and a boat drifting away at best. If you are the captain, do not allow crew to enter the water without a lot of careful thought. Drop the main in the water, float victim into it, and then winch them on deck. Visualize how that would work and be prepared to do it.

Open transom or not, your best bet in heavy conditions - why are they overboard and unable to assist in their own recovery anyway? It's probably bad conditions right? - is to park the boat such that they are one the leeward side of the boat. Try to park a boat such that your victim is looking at your stern in bad conditions ain't gonna happen. Furthermore, you have no means of assisting them without leaving the safety of the cockpit. NO, NO JOE!

And for those of you with handheld radios or RAM mics - as you are circling victim, please issue a Pan Pan on 16. Give the coasties your vessel name, number of persons on board, size of vessel and conditions, location and nature of emergency - then leave the freaking radio alone while rescuing victim. Once you have them aboard, resume conversation with Coasties. You may need their help and at least they will have a heads up in advance and if for some reason you don't come back they might come looking.

Coasties are notorious for wanting all of the paperwork filled out before doing anything. Don't chattter with them, do what you need to do and tell them so - we have heard horror stories of folks who were in need of CPR and the Coasties wanted the phonetic spelling of their vessel.

Sailing is inherently risky behavior and requires the ongoing development of skills to survive. Sooner or later Darwin comes to get the negligant sailor.

Sten

DPO C25 #3220 "Zephyr", SR, FK
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine FL, heading south to the islands in a week after the canvas guy finishes! Yippee!

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 09:41:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Sailing is inherently risky behavior and requires the ongoing development of skills to survive.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Relatively speaking, sailing is actually one of the safest things you can do on the water. If you look at the USCG's Boating statistics, you'll find that auxiliary sailboats are either at the bottom, or close too it, in almost every statistical category and often by a considerable margin.

Go to the link below and open the 2006 Accident Statistics then look at "Types of Accidents by Types of Vessel" on page 27.

[url="http://www.uscgboating.org/statistics/accident_stats.htm"]US Coast Guard Boating Statistics[/url]

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 09:51:03

For those considering using their booms to lift someone out of the water, you may want to ensure your topping lift hardware is up to the task. On my boat, the blocks on my topping lift are rather light and I wouldn't trust them to lift a 200-250lb, soaking wet victim. If they were to let go, the falling boom might make things worse for both the rescuer and rescuee.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 10:10:49

Quote: "Relatively speaking, sailing is actually one of the safest things you can do on the water. If you look at the USCG's Boating statistics, you'll find that auxiliary sailboats are either at the bottom, or close too it, in almost every statistical category and often by a considerable margin."

You are correct Don, and I am surprised that there are not MORE fatalities given the general boating populations understanding of IT ALL! As a former motorcyclist, I do not understand folks without helmets and wearing shorts, flip flops and have a girl with a thong hanging onto their back! OK, girl with thong I understand, but I also understand that if he spills she is gunna be fugly forever.

same with sailing - idiots all over the place, but because of lower numbers of day sailors - lower incidents. But when it happens you can't just call 911, pull over, call AAA, AARP,

but you can call the Coasties and wait... and pray if you are so inclined... OR, know what to do and save your wife or best friend. You are not swimming anywhere typically unless you are on a lake in Kansas - maybe - so knowledge of recovery is very important. People do die while sailing - it happens....

As far as the topping lift - you are again correct sir! Use a halyard and if possible a block and tackle kit. The boom may not cut it.

sten

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 10:22:39

This is an interesting and important topic. I intend to actually try to pull someone out of the water this summer and see what it is like. A few thoughts.

If the Admiral or I go overboard in the frigid PNW waters, and cannot get right back in the boat, it is not a Pan Pan, it is a Mayday call with the DSC. If that is an overreaction then Coast Guard can chew me out, so be it.

The freeboard on a C250, and most boats, will prevent you from grabbing a swimmer. My plan would be to use the boat hook to snag the person and get them to the open transom where it would be much easier to grab them, put a line on them and winch them back onboard.

This whole thing is why we wear harnesses and tethers when out on open water. The description that Paul gave could be a deadly situation in the cold Pacific.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 11:29:02

Randy,
This is why the "lifesling" product is so compelling. You simply circle the victim like picking up a waterskier and then pull them towards the vessel. Boathook could work, but they only reach so far and there is going to be movement. We have practiced the MOB program and have found it virtually impossible to stop the boat right on something in any kind of chop, current, wind, etc... get too close and you risk further injury to your swimmer and too far away and you'll have to come in for a second pass further complicating things. Once you practice, you will know what I mean. It's way harder than it sounds.

sten

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 12:59:51

Excellent mid-winter topic! On Don's USCG link, note on page 16 (2006 stats) that "Falls Overboard" are one of the highest causes of death--regardless of vessel. We all realize that a sailboat has a greater challenge getting back to a MOB and remaining under control to do the rescue... also that the high freeboard poses challenge... and keep in mind that a rescue at the stern is problematic if the boat is pitching--the victim could be pounded and pushed under the bottom of the transom, and in that situation the engine must not be used to assist in controlling the boat--the suction power of the prop is tremendous. Most recommendations I've seen are for a midship, leeward rescue if possible.

I'm intrigued by the notion of dunking the mains'l and then using the halyard to winch the victim up (except that I now don't have a sail). I'm thinking you'd need to get the slugs out of the kerf first... Right? (Screwed-on gates might make that impractical.)

However, now that I'm in a boat that is more capable of getting to a scene first, you've got me noodling on how I might perform a rescue and what I need to add... I have a big platform on the transom, just a few inches above the waterline, but that might not be the answer. When I decide on something, I might try "rescuing" something like a 30-gallon garbage can full of water (~250#), with a couple of fenders to keep it afloat. I'd rather not test with a human "victim"--if something goes awry, I'd rather hurt the garbage can. And it won't be able to help in any way.

Edited by - on

stampeder
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 13:09:30

Retrieving a MOB will no doubt happen in crappy weather.

Imagine having a MOB in cold water, with winds approaching 20 knots, heavy chop, perhaps 3-5' swell. You have two full sails.

Lower the OB while circling back to the MOB, tacking and or jybing to get into position, deploying the MOB emergency gear.
Heckuva job for a single hander.

Edited by - on

Jefffriday
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USA
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 13:21:59

I put a swim platform on like Andy's on Breaking wind (thanks so much, by the way) with the telescopic ladder that sits on top. I can stand on it and assist easily, I can also get back on board without any assitance if I go overboard (assuming the wonderful autopilot is not on, or on a run) I put it on specifically to aid in a MOB or dog overboard situation, but have foune it to be really great even for a quick swim. You can sit on the platform, with your legs in the water and assist someone, even hurt, up the ladder and into the boat.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 13:58:25

I don't think there's one "right" or best way to retrieve a MOB. For example, in calm waters it's not particularly difficult to sail back to the MOB, but at sea, in big waves and cold water, it might not only be difficult, but you might lose sight of him fairly quickly, especially at night. In that situation it might be better to motor back to him, being careful, of course, to keep him clear of the prop while it's turning, and likewise being careful to keep lines out of the water, so they don't foul the prop when you need it most. By using the motor, you can not only get to him more quickly, but you can get him aboard and warm more quickly. Also, if you do lose sight of him, by using the motor you can immediately begin to operate the boat in ever-widening rectangles, in search of the MOB.

I don't think you should just practice one MOB technique. You should practice different methods, because the circumstances might make one method better than the others.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 14:05:23

On hot summer days after evening racing our skipper - who always wears a life jacket - would routinely dive on on the half hour trip back to the home port. Our best time was 93 seconds, worst was around 5 minutes. I was always amazed how some of the crew didn't see it coming when all the signs were obvious. He'd hand over the tiller and take off his shoes then call for a beer. Occasionally he'd empty stuff from his pockets into the netting in the back of the cockpit. On some occasions he'd even ask if anyone had a towel on board. Anyway him, the life jacket and the beer would dive in with only one person on board fully knowing what was going on based on a pre arranged conversation.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 14:15:47

With Passage, my plan in most situations included luffing up and rolling up the genny immediately, getting the engine running, and then using the main or engine to circle back by falling off and then jibing around. If I stopped quickly and close enough, I could backwind the main and make the boat back up. (That works best with no jib deployed.) I didn't have a Lifesling, but I had a floating ski tow rope/handle in the cockpit rope locker, and plenty of throwable cushions.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 15:34:03

OK! You guys convinced me. I just ordered my new Lifesling, a new tether and new Automatic Sospenders with harness from Defender. BTW, they were about $100 less expensive than the other guys.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 16:17:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...note on page 16 (2006 stats) that "Falls Overboard" are one of the highest causes of death--regardless of vessel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, but you are overwhelmingly at greater risk of falling overboard on a non-sailing watercraft. Knowing this, how many powerboaters do you think wear tethers while out on the water?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 16:37:35

Red, your right, it would be tough to get close enough to the victim to snag them with a boat hook. I carry a large horseshoe life ring on the stern rail. Is the LifeSling basically a life ring with a long line? I also have one of those throwable bags with a lot of line that deploys. Wondering if I should tie the throwable bag line to the horseshoe ring and use that setup. Would that be the equivalent of a LifeSling??

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 16:47:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Is the LifeSling basically a life ring with a long line?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes and no. A Lifesling is a flotation device that can also be used to lift a MOB.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 17:24:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Red, your right, it would be tough to get close enough to the victim to snag them with a boat hook. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">In ordinary conditions it isn't difficult if you practice it. If the MOB was knocked off by the boom, he might be unconscious, and you either have to get close enough to snag him with a boat hook or go into the water yourself to get him.

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 17:53:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
If the MOB was knocked off by the boom, he might be unconscious, and you either have to get close enough to snag him with a boat hook or go into the water yourself to get him.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We had a guy that was shot off the boom. Somebody forgot to tell him that as the human preventer he just neeeded to warn te crew to duck before he wrapped around the shrouds toward the foredeck. He wasn't knocked out, but had seriously fractured his leg. We couldn't get close to him and all the floaties we through sliced hard right with the wind. He was unable to swim to us due to the fracture. Luckily another boat close by was able to pick him up - by snagging him with a boathook.

In one of the other live drill the skipper claimed he was unconscious for the rescue - an ex-marine on board grabbed him by the life jacket right onto the deck as though he were a USN seal pulling a colleague onto the zodiac. But only after 3 tries to get close.

Another thing to remember, all the gear you buy is worthless unless you know how to use it. Practice in different conditions. Practice on different points of sail, Practice with and without the engine and if possible on a nice warm flat day practice with a real person.

If you routinely fly an symetrical spinnaker, practice a MOB drill on the downwind leg. It becomes a completely new experience when you can't head upwind until the sail needs to come down.

Another thing to remember - as mentioned by Steve above - know how to do more than one MOB maneuver. Conditions might not always be good for the drop the sails and turn on the motor, Maybe figure 8 puts you into the rocks or the reach reach can't be done because the lines got fouled when your guy went overboard.

KWRW actually mandates the crew practice the Quick stop prior to the race week, however US-sailing has that method amongst a few others here: http://www.videos.sailingcourse.com/tacking.htm

dw

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 18:06:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Is the LifeSling basically a life ring with a long line?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes and no. A Lifesling is a flotation device that can also be used to lift a MOB.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
$99 at Defender -- tax free outside of CT.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 18:41:08

Various books describe the figure-8, jibe-circle, etc... No matter how you practice it, the real event will be under worse conditions and under more stress, so practice is critical. The one thing the books and articles I've seen don't suggest, that I put into our drill, was dousing the jib (in our case by pulling the furling line) and starting the engine, so from that point on, the sails didn't need to be attended to while you dealt with everything else. Even a flogging jib can make it harder to hold the boat luffed into the wind. Besides, you don't want a high-performance boat at that point--you want a manageable boat that you can turn and stop while you're concentrating on the victim. Lifeslings are useless if you can't get back into the vicinity of the MOB and control the boat in adverse conditions, especially if the MOB is unconscious.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/24/2008 18:45:15

glivs
Admiral

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Response Posted - 02/24/2008 : 20:53:19

good thread...this exchange has really driven home the importance of developing streamlined protocols and practice. The only point I want to make is that what may be physically demanding for me (even if I were not injured), may prove highly challenging for someone else, such as the Admiral. Tailoring protocols for the situation must consider the experience and strengths of the individual crew members who may have to take control of the situation. Individual tasks, such as lowering the OB and getting it started could prove daunting and then add to that dousing the sails, making a call on the VHF, returning to the POB.....

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