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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

blue water

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quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/11/2008 : 21:23:43

is my catalina 25 1978 swing keel a "blue water sailboat"
what actually is a blue water sailboat and what makes one
thanks, always heard that term

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2008 : 21:51:36

Try the Search function with that phrase and you'll find some discussions--the short answer is NO. In sailing parlance, a "blue water boat" is one you are secure in when you're far enough over the horizon that even with a weather forecast, you're going to have to withstand whatever the open ocean serves up. A C-25 is a "coastal cruiser", capable of sailing oceans (and Great Lakes) in "reasonable" conditions and ready to head for cover or stay home in others. Some people have circumnavigated in C-27s, and smaller boats--that doesn't make the C-27 a blue-water boat. It probably makes those people attention-seekers who don't think much about the families they leave behind.

The short answer for what a blue-water boat is can be most easily obtained by stepping aboard an Island Packet or Pacific Seacraft at any big sailboat show. Some of the other good ones probably won't be there--they either aren't built any more or aren't commodities for the general boating public. Ballast, rigging, tankage, rudder strength and mounting, inboard engine, bridge deck, bullet-proof hatches and ports, safe side-decks, double/triple lifelines,... all are part of the equation. I know an experienced sailor who was caught 600 miles offshore in something less (somebody else's C&C 36)... After a 3-day pounding, they had water coming in from the top and the bottom and hardly anything worked any more... He won't do that again. Other people always will.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/11/2008 21:52:45

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2008 : 22:53:45

Pretty much covers it. I just want to through in one of my favorite: Flicka, a 21 foot ocean crosser

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 05:38:14

and how about the fact that you have a 5 foot long, 1500 lb keel held on by 4 small closely spaced bolts.
Rock and Roll!

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stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 09:30:38

If you're trying to post a picture as your signature, try the 'preview' function to see if it works.
Make sure you are using the 'insert image' button and paste the image properties between the quotation marks. (fine looking crew by the way)

My C25 SK is only a blue water boat when I'm sailing close to shore with a beer in my hand, daydreaming. The trick is to kind of squint your eyes so all that you see is ocean and horizon and then you imagine that you are over the horizon out of sight of land. When you open your eyes you imagine how much it would cost to buy the actual boat that you would need to sail off into your imagination.

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Dave5041
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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 10:48:49

Gloss,
Pivoting and lifting keels with and without stub keels have been on a smattering of successful blue water boas for decades. Not too many years ago many argued that fin keel boats had no place offshore. Not suggesting that my TR/SK is ready for the Azores

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1981capri
Navigator

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USA
175 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 11:05:49

I think the Catalina web site menu says it all. 8 to 25ft are considered sport boats, 28 to 37ft cruisers and 38 to 47ft ocean(blue water?).

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 11:22:08

Some issues regarding keels and blue water...

1. Swing keels are pretty much out of favor for offshore boats--some have centerboards, but that's different. A centerboard is not the ballast for the boat as the SK is on the C-25. An ocean cruiser should have fixed ballast that will right the boat from almost any position, and will not move relative to the hull form (or fall off).

2. Fin keels and centerboards, for offshore work, should be designed in combination with a long keel that gives directional stability, especially in following seas. The fin or board improves windward performance, and the board helps in the Bahamas or in shallow anchorages. A fin or board without a long keel in offshore conditions makes a broach much too likely.

3. The full or "cutaway" keel favored by many blue-water sailors, and found on Valiants, Island Packets, Pacific Seacrafts, etc., also privides a very strong mounting point for the rudder (top to bottom), minimizing the chances of it breaking off when it's slammed into the water sideways or hits a submerged object. Some boats use a small skeg for supporting and protecting the rudder.

4. Long keels, skegs, and keel-hung rudders go against the principles of high-performance boats. Naked spade rudders and deep fins with wings or bulps are the things... Everything's a compromise. A thousand miles out, you might want to favor a design that will get you there, not necessarily outrun the boat 500 miles away.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 12:03:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by 1981capri
 I think the Catalina web site menu says it all. 8 to 25ft are considered sport boats, 28 to 37ft cruisers and 38 to 47ft ocean(blue water?).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sorry, but I wouldn't categorize the C-47 as a blue-water passagemaker... I'd call it a large, comfortable coastal cruiser. That doesn't mean nobody will sail one to Hawaii or the S. Pacific... it just doesn't appear to be designed and built for that purpose.

As many know, 10 miles off Cape Ann, Point Judith, Cape May, Cape Hatteras, Dana Point, etc., can be plenty "blue"!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/12/2008 12:05:06

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 12:37:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Some issues regarding keels and blue water...

1. Swing keels are pretty much out of favor for offshore boats--<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[url="http://www.northshore.co.uk/Default.htm"]Southerly[/url]

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 13:16:03

Yup--there's always something...

Note that about 60% of the Southerly's ballast is fixed and 40% is in the swing keel. I think the Polar is another like that.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 14:10:12

I have taken my Catalina 25 50 miles offshore and done a 600 mile round trip single handed voyage from San Diego to the Channel Islands including a stop at Santa Rosa Island. Those were coastal voyages, if bad weather happened (and it did) I was never more than about 12 hours from shelter and never over the horizon from US Coast Guard help. Still, there were frightening moments.

The weak points on the C25 are well known: forward hatch, anchor hatch, chainplates bolted through the decks, pop top, and weak transom hung rudder. In addition, there is no good way to cary a decent dinghy or liferaft. Swing keel is also a weakness, although mine is a fin and I have sistered 6 3/4 inch keelbolts in place along with the original. The foredeck is so small changing down to storm sails can be really dangerous. There is not enough storage for a really long voyage over 3 weeks.

A blue water boat would be prepared to be knocked down or inverted, would have sufficent storage for an extended voyage, would have significantly beefier rigging and more redundancy. You would expect the internal bulkheads to be glassed in place (not on a Catalina), better bilge pumps, a nav station with SSB or Ham radio, EPIRB, better storage for wet foulies and so on. Also an internal autopilot or wind vane (you can't get our tiller pilots out of the weather and they are too weak to stand up to a real storm).

A blue water boat could use an outboard for power.

A well equipped and maintained C25 can be a fun and low cost coastal cruiser, can be raced, can be day sailed, can do just about anything except cross an ocean in comfort. It is one of the best boats available for the $.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 14:19:44

Yep, everything is a compromise for a purpose. Size does not determine bluewater (Flicka), and I wouldn't consider any Catalina bluewater. The popularity of a full or cutaway keel results from its real benefits for most cruisers: less popular but well engineered designs can still be quite capable off shore but do not fit the needs of most sailors.

I was amazed to find that my 83 has no mechanism for locking the keel down. Even my Clipper 21 had a stainless locking pin that would keep the keel in place, even turtled. Everything to a price point, and I guess most people wouldn't use it anyway.

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Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 14:32:01

What I would like to know is how many of th ebluewater boats for sale have ever seen their owners dreams to reality. Recently I saw a Westsail on Yachtworld that had "Never seen saltwater" now, that may be a broker trying to make a sale, but if it was true, what a waste!

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 15:12:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
I was amazed to find that my 83 has no mechanism for locking the keel down. Even my Clipper 21 had a stainless locking pin that would keep the keel in place, even turtled. Everything to a price point, and I guess most people wouldn't use it anyway.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Dave, I don't think price had anything to do with it. The C22 had a lockdown screw on the swing keel, but the C22 swing keel only weighed about 550#, and the lock-down really didn't work very well. I don't think Catalina could figure out how to mount a functional lock down device in the available fiberglass structure that would hold the 1500# keel in place if the boat was inverted. Besides, the C25 is a coastal cruiser. If you use the boat within its design limitations, you won't be out in conditions so violent that the boat is in danger of rolling over.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 15:14:23

Propsector, if I cruised L. Superior, I might like having a Westsail--that's fresh water, but it can be pretty "blue" with not a lot of places to hide. As for how many BW boats have made ocean passages, that reminds me of the Miller commercial a few years back, referring to a neighbor's new SUV...

"The only off-road service that vehicle will see is when it backs over the nextdoor neighbor's garden!"

Then there's the Valiant I saw on a Colorado lake...

Edited by - on

Joel37027
Deckhand

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USA
21 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 15:42:32

Yeah, Land Rovers at the super market are another good example.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2008 : 19:25:29

Steve,
I agree that knocking one of these boats down is probably a lot less likely than being struck by lightning, and that is pretty remote. It was just an observation. The Clipper had metal plates laminated into the keel housing structure; the pin slid horizontally through a hole in the plates and keel. Lining it up was tedious without 2 people.

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2far2drive
1st Mate

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USA
74 Posts

Response Posted - 03/13/2008 : 22:04:12

Ive personally had my eye on Bristols, Allied, and Albergs. Great boats, good value, strong.

I used to imagine myself going against the norm and taking my time, coastal hoppping my way through Mex and the Carib. The I took my first steps on a Yankee 30 and a Bristol 30. I walked back to mine and instantly saw her flaws. She could do it if you were careful, but you wouldnt have much peace of mind. All in all, C-25s are awsome little boats with a decent cruising range.

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quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 05:40:54

I think I know what you all mean, I am a professional mechanic and I see a lot of cars built for a specific function that never get to full fill their destiny sort of speak, for example ferrari which is bought by most people with money, will never get to see a race track, (Ive seen that way to many times) and some jeeps which never even get their wheels muddy,
then youll find some guy who will buy the cheapest car he can find and beat the living crap out of it and it does more than it was intended to do,,
like a kid buying a toyota corolla and racing it every weekend till the wheels fall off,,
something like that,,

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OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3448 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 06:16:39

I know you are having a problem getting your photo to show in the address...read past postings. I wonder if part of the problem is similar to what i experienced when I was putting the URL in for posting photos in my responses and it was not working. One of the things I was doing wrong was that I was putting in the URL for a page but not for the photo. Then I was told to right click on my photo and get the properties for it - Then cut and paste that URL which was ending with .jpg for JPEG photo using the Forum's Insert image command...that then worked.

Edited by - OLarryR on 03/14/2008 06:19:17

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 07:42:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by quilombo
 I think I know what you all mean, I am a professional mechanic and I see a lot of cars built for a specific function that never get to full fill their destiny sort of speak, for example ferrari which is bought by most people with money, will never get to see a race track, (Ive seen that way to many times) and some jeeps which never even get their wheels muddy,
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And then there's the guys like me - in my driveway is a Chevy Astro (which is used as a 4X4 or pickup truck), A dodge Caravan (Which is used as a family sedan) and a Volvo convertible (Which is used as a Volvo Convertible). I also went to Montreal on the weekend the Canadian Lamborghini Owners Association had rented the racetrack. Those rich guys know how to have a good time.

I have a friend who did all the great lakes in a Catalina 27. I think that you could easily cover off the lakes in a C-25. I have another friend with a Pearson Flyer. A very fast boat, 30 feet long, planing hull, wide open inside. I wouldn't want to do a trip like that in that boat - its built for racing.

Since we are still new to sailing our purpose for this boat is get the basics of seamanship down, and do some cruising on the lakes. Like your kid with a Toyota, we will also race on our lake at the club level with it. I wonder how you pimp a C-25. is there ground effect lighting available?

Edited by - Prospector on 03/14/2008 07:43:21

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 03/14/2008 : 12:41:54

Actually there is ground effect lighting available -->> http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SiteSearchView?catalogId=10001&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&keyword=Underwater+Lights&Ntt=Underwater+Lights&N=377+710&storeId=10001&Ntk=Primary+Search&ddkey=SiteSearch

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