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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Rudder fears

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/07/2008 : 12:29:27

With all the talk of rudders doing very bad things, I took a look at mine last night. It definitely has a seam, along the skinny edge from top to bottom, all the way around. Is that seam supposed to be sealed up? Having never had a boat before, I am not sure if the seam is a sign of a split rudder, how is a newbie to tell if he is in trouble or not?

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 12:33:47

I glassed over my seam... just because.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 13:03:18

That vintage rudder is built like a clamshell with a wood core in the head (the fat part that the pintles are attached to). The seam is usually quite visible. If it's open, that's likely because the rudder was stored outside over the winter and moisture inside froze. It's very common. I suspected rot in my old rudder, partly because the seam was open and partly because the pintles were pushed up--the forward bolt holes were elongated. I decided on replacing it with a newer, balanced design rudder (a very nice upgrade)... If I'd elected to keep it, I would have drilled a hole through the head, slightly above the level of the lower pintle, to test the integrity of the core, and then, after a winter indoors to dry out, expoxied the hole and probably glass-taped and epoxied the seam as Frank apparently did, and epoxied and re-drilled the pintle bolt holes. Rotten wood appears to be what causes those rudders to snap at the lower pintle (where the most stress is).

Edited by - on

quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2008 : 17:38:24

I
Chris,
if your rudder is original I would replace it with a solid core rudder , thats what I am using at the moment, and believe me theres no way its going to fail
there are alot avail on the market,

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/08/2008 : 15:09:37

Thanks everyone. I will spend the season tending it carefully to be sure all is well. I have been told to cut spending by SWMBO, so the upgrade will have to wait untill either next summer or when this rudder fails.

Edited by - on

dreddick
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 22:11:14

I noticed my rudder seam (only above the water line) also needs to be re-sealed. It looks like it had something in the seam before but it has deteriorated. Any suggestions on what to use along the seam? Maybe something like 3M 5200? I believe this is a foam core rudder.

Edited by - dreddick on 03/16/2009 21:06:32

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2008 : 23:22:51

David: Indeed your '89 should have the balanced, foam-cored rudder. Have you stored it indoors in the winter? If not, that's probably the result of moisture freezing inside. The moisture can come from the pintle bolts and/or the tiller bolt hole, but once the splitting starts, it comes from that. 5200 might be as good as anything since it has some elasticity. (Epoxy doesn't.) But keep that baby from freezing.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 09:26:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dreddick
 I noticed my rudder seam (only above the water line) also needs to be re-sealed. It looks like it had something in the seam before but it has deteriorated. Any suggestions on what to use along the seam? Maybe something like 3M 5200? I believe this is a foam core rudder.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My 89 looked like that so I glassed over it. Glassing is so easy, even wrinkles just sand away.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2008 : 10:03:53

Also, when your boat is out of the water, remove the rudder and store it out of the sun. This is especially so if you have dark antifouling paint on the rudder. I install my rudder on the day I launch and remove it when I haul out.

Edited by - on

dreddick
Navigator

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117 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 21:09:26

Just editing some old posts to resize the pictures that Shutterfly turned into thumbnails

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 21:56:32

I glassed over the seam on my rudder. I also bought a used rudder this past winter from a member who posted items on this site.

The replacement rudder is my "just in case something happens to my rudder" because the sailing season is short. I don't want to find myself losing days of sailing because of a rudder problem.

After I glassed over the seam, I reshaped the surface and edge.

Here is a picture of the rudder on the boat. Notice that the edge does not show a seam -- glassed and painted.

http://www.myteacherpages.com/webpages/DTallman1/files/hoist2.JPG" border="0">

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 21:58:12

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5368 Posts

Response Posted - 03/16/2009 : 22:09:09

Dave -
No visible signs of splitting on the Passage rudder. Every October it comes off the boat and into my garage loft (which remains warm until January, by which time it is dry) and it goes back out in April.

Keeping an eye out for problems, but so far - so good.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2009 : 01:23:03

Like Voyager, stored in the garage and I fix any dings. It has lasted 25 years, so it probably got similar care before I got it. I don't have a problem with something that lasts that long.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2009 : 13:39:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 I have been told to cut spending by SWMBO, so the upgrade will have to wait until either next summer or when this rudder fails.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You might want to share with her the cost of the entire boat! If your rudder goes, then more is at stake than just the $ of the rudder replacement or repair. We lost our tiller and rudder on our C22 years ago because I stupidly put a cooler under the tiller without locking pintles and the whole assembly just lifted out and floated away. Maneuvering back with the outboard was a RPITA. Knowing that the whole core of your rudder could be completely rotting away is not something that gives anyone a warm & fuzzy feeling...

Edited by - on

Geno
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2009 : 10:22:56

I am new here with my 1st boat, can anyone help me with rudder dimensions? I acquired a used boat where the top of the rudder has broken off from rot. I stripped the glass and filler until all signs of wood rot are gone. I cannot afford another rudder so I am going to do a structural splice on to the old rudder and glass it well. What I need are specific dimensions for the rudder particularly at the top where the tiller mounts since this part of my rudder is missing. Could someone email me a sketch of the Catalina 25 rudder with dimensions? Thanks in advance if you could take the time to help me out, send to gene.groves @ gmail .com.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2009 : 12:11:09

Welcome, Geno... This is from the Tech Tips section, and is a drawing of the newer "balanced" design, but the head dimensions should work for you. Can you show us some pictures of your damage, and share with us the vintage of your boat?

The "unbalanced" (original) design does not include the forward "steps" below the lower pintle. The pintle placements are dependent on the year of your boat--you'll need to do your own measurements to determine the dimension between pintles and what will allow the tiller to clear the transom by a couple of inches.

Let me just say that the most critical structural point on the rudder is laterally from the lower pintle--that's where the forces from the water work against the force from the tiller, and is where these rudders break. If you're rebuilding up from about that area, you need to really reinforce it--from well below to well above that area. If you sail in "big water" where the boat will pitch fore-and-aft, I think that's a crap-shoot that could lead you to a terrifying moment one day.

But I'm the resident curmudgeon here...

Again, welcome, and good luck!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/21/2009 12:18:00

Geno
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2009 : 14:21:28

Thanks for the quick reply Dave, this is exactly what I needed. It is the older unbalanced design, 1981 vintage to be exact. I assume all the dimensions are identical with the exception of the "forward" portion. Only the piece above the pintles broke off, but the wood was waterlogged and you can see the wormholes (saltwater). It's new duty will only be mild weather freshwater. I'm going to cut the top off halfway between the pintles and splice in a new piece of wood sandwiched with aluminum plates overlapping the joint. I am then going to fill and shape with glass-fiber filled epoxy putty and re-glass the entire rudder. Appreciate the heads-up and feel free to contribute any more. I assume HTML needs to be turned on to insert pictures but couldn't figure out how to do it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2009 : 15:35:09

The process for pictures is described in the Testing Forum. It involves uploading to a picture site (like Picassa) and inserting its URL into your post using the

button.

The overall shape and dimensions of the balanced rudder are somewhat different from the original, but you can do whatever supports the tiller at a reasonable level above the transom cut-out, with the little step to hold it level. Your plan sounds pretty good, particularly for a light-duty venue.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/21/2009 15:40:25

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2009 : 13:41:22

Geno,

I have an '82 with the original rudder. This winter, I've been doing some pretty intensive maintenance (the boat was benignly neglected for a few years when I got her last summer) and finally got around to looking at the rudder. Like many others here, the rudder has a split running almost the entire seam where the two halves are joined together. The rudder also has a very pronounced twist... with the submerged part of the blade amidships, the tiller leans to port about ten or fifteen degrees. I also had a few cracks propagate from the bottom pintle. Not wanting to be on a ship without a rudder (I've done the metaphorical equivalent, occupationally speaking, and it didn't agree with me), I began researching my options. First was buy a used one. That seemed to defeat the whole purpose. Then I checked on buying a new one. That seemed very expensive. Finally, I looked at building my own. I decided to build my own using the very plan Dave Bristle posted above from the tech section (I simply love this forum!) and have completed the core and should begin glassing on Monday. Here a few pictures:

This is the glue-up

This is blank being cut and shaped.

This is the core ready for glass.

This is the head of the rudder.

What I have learned:

I will be able to complete this project cheaper than if I had purchased a new rudder from CD, but I'm not sure how much I will have saved. If you factor in labor, buying a new one is a "no-brainer". I was able to get a pretty good deal on the resin and glass (I almost went with carbon fiber, but decided to go with glass for ease of work and info available), but because I am not using a mold, gelcoating this much real estate will likely prove a very vexing and not really pretty finish. So I'll go with a filler/putty and urethane paint (with its drawbacks as well). My point is, if you are contemplating a scarf type joint to repair the damaged head of the rudder, you must have a pretty good shop to complete the job. If you're going to all the trouble to splice an old and probably structurally questionable rudder, you're not too far from building a new one from scratch. With the plans provided (which I think are copies from Catalina) you can build a balanced rudder without the doubt of a splice or what else might be hidden in the rest of your rudder. There is a lot of stress on a rudder... if you consider the tiller is a three foot lever arm with a 5 inch fulcrum gives you at least a 6 to 1 advantage. In other words, a ten pound pull exerts 60 pounds of torque. You can exert a lot of force on the head of the rudder, even if you intend to only sail on "nice" days. Just food for thought.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2009 : 14:00:18

Tom,
Nice work! Nice to see someone using hand planes. What did you laminate it from? Did you dowel it or use biscuit joints or maybe SS bolts? Good idea on drilling out your mount points and backfilling with epoxy, that'll save you a headache further down the road.

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2009 : 14:19:18

David,
Thanks for the kind words. I used vertical grain Douglas Fir for the laminate and I used biscuits to join the strips. I cut the fir in 2 x 1 1/2" strips and then alternated the grain to avoid cupping. I did, as you pointed out, drill oversized holes for the tiller mounting bolt and pintle mounting bolts and filled them epoxy. For the bulk of the material removing on the rudder blade, I made a jig and used my router. Once the profile was roughed out, I used planes, chisels and sanders to smooth the surface.

It's been a great cold weather project, but now the weather is starting to warm up and I'm off to the boat for a little work on my newly rehabbed electrical panel!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2009 : 17:25:19

Tom's 6-to-1 torque is just part ofim the stress at the lower pintle... Perhaps even worse is the sudden force of the water as the boat pitches while it is heeled. That seems to be when they break. I think Tom makes a good point--building a new one might be relatively little more work, you'll know exactly what you have top-to-bottom, and the balanced design is much nicer to drive--sorta like power steering. (Why go to all the effort for an inferior design.) Nice work, Tom.

One way or the other, consider the rudder to be one of the most critical components of the boat, maybe just after the mast and its rigging. If it fails in a blow, you have a big problem. Make your financial or labor decisions accordingly. BTW, if I were attempting that (fat chance), I might use pressure-treated fir (with a mask) for that extra bit of rot resistance.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/22/2009 17:28:43

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