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Swing Keel Question

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Cbucki1
1st Mate

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USA
47 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/11/2008 : 20:04:06

Hey Folks,
I am doing some early season sailing in Denver.

PROS - The lake that I am sailling on is right in town - and you can't beat sailing in April!
CONS - the lake is very shallow this early in the year.

Some areas of the lake are between 4 and 7 feet. With my swing keel down, I am finding myself in situations that are too close for comfort.

Other swing keel owners on the lake sail with their keels 3/4 of the way down in early season.
Is this a good idea - or am I putting extra stress on the cable?

Any insights would be grealy appreciated.

Thanks!

CB

chuck buck
Summit Oasis
78 Catalina 25
Denver Colorado

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/11/2008 : 20:32:16

If you are pounding, the cable is subject to recurring shock loads that I don't think it was designed for. On smooth water, it shouldn't matter a lot. It is a very heavy cable and probably has a very large safety margin, but I would be inclined to replace it every couple of years if I sailed a lot with the board partially down.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2008 : 06:33:45

Many swing keel C25s have been sailed in shallow lakes for many years with their keels partially retracted all the time without problems. Regardless of whether you do that frequently or not, it is absolutely essential that the retracting mechanism and cable be carefully maintained. As you can imagine, if the cable breaks, and the heavy keel falls, it will likely do significant damage to the structure of the boat and perhaps sinking. I have heard of swing keel boats sinking from such an event, but haven't heard of any such event where the keel mechanism was well maintained. While it is theoretically possible for the keel to pound in big waves, I doubt that it'll ever happen in "real life." It would take a huge and very sudden drop to cause that big, heavy chunk of cast iron to lift and drop, and very few people are foolish enough to take a boat designed for lake sailing and fair weather coastal cruising into those conditions.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/12/2008 : 10:05:45

I wouldn't worry much about the big drop, it is, as Steve said, an unlikely event. The recurrent micro-drops or surges of the suspended keel are what causes fatigue and abrasion in the system. Just check the system annually and replace when in doubt, the parts are not that expensive. If you have the CD shackle upgrade, cable replacement is very easy and I had a rigger make a new cable for half the CD price. Also, keep in mind that even the max load with the keel fully up the cable only supports about half the weight of the keel and the breaking strength of various 5/16" stainless cables falls in the 10 - 14 thousand pound range and 1/4" about half that.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2008 : 13:20:14

I sail my Swinger in a resevoir that is shallow early in the sailing season. I keep my keel in the full down position, raising the keel as far as necesary when necesary.

I sail the areas where I know the water is deeper and avoid the shallower areas. From time to time I have to raise the keel a couple feet to clear a sand bar or rocky area etc, when I get clear I lower the keel.

I have full confidence in the swing keel mechanism/system on my boat and believe this is the best boat for my sailing venue. But, I don't think its a good idea to sail with the swing keel halfway deployed.
That said, I've had my swinger moored in salt water for months at a time with the keel up.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2008 : 19:33:09

I have a swing keel. During the time when the lake is low, it is great to be able to lift the keel to get to the deeper parts of the lake.

One aspect to owning a swing keel is the cable should be checked yearly; ensure the integrity is sound.

I plan to replace my cable this month along with some attaching hardware.

Another nice aspect to the swing keel is the ability to trailer the boat; albeit, one would not want to do so often because the boat can still be big and heavy. A Cat 25 with a trailer could be about 7k pounds.

Deric

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/15/2008 : 22:14:36

Don't tell me that, Deric. I live in southern Ohio and I drag Pearl to Lake Erie for the summer and Florida for the winter, I gotta believe in trailerability.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 10:30:13

Deric, I think you are about 1K over. The Cat 25 is rated new at 4500 pounds, keel and all. Add 1000 lbs for the trailer and your still 1500 pounds short of 7K. Unless you are hauling a whole lot of stuff in your boat, I would suspect that actual hauling weight is around 6K.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 11:54:44

Right Steve, I weighed in at a little over 6000 with basic equipment and empty tanks.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 21:07:32

I stand corrected, thank you gentleman.

I had a Ford Explorer when I purchased my Cat 25 with the EZ loader trailer. At that time, last Fall, I was told by the owner of the mariner that my Explorer couldn't handle the towing of my boat and trailer: the combined weight was 7K. Hence, I borrowed my brother-in-laws diesel engine pickup truck - - now this was a truck if I ever saw one. In conclusion, I had anticipated towing the Cat 25 often, but became hesitant after learning of the weight and towing strength of the 1996 Ford Explorer. Perhaps another thread could be made for this topic.

I love the swing keel, and with the right vehicle, it's a great combo.

BTW - The Ford Explorer died.

Thanks,
Deric

Hence,

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 21:34:27

Deric: You can search for and find several extensive threads on tow vehicles on the General, C-25, and possibly C-250 forums. Net: The C-25 is at or well above manufacturers' limits for many vehicles including the Explorer, opinions here differ on the significance of towing weight limits (I think they are significant), and (IMHO) wheelbase is a major factor.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/16/2008 21:38:33

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 21:52:03

I agree that towing limits shouldn't be regularly exceeded, but I have read a number of articles suggesting that you should stay 30 -50 % under the limit for safe towing. That, I think is bunk. Manufacturers already have a fudge factor, stay below the limit and you'll be OK. There has probably been enough energy expended typing on various towing threads to tow a C-25 pretty far.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 22:01:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Manufacturers already have a fudge factor,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You ain't kiddin'...

The Truth About Towing
February 25, 2007

BY MARK PHELAN

FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and towing capacity.

Nineteenth-Century British politician Benjamin Disraeli may have said the last type of lie was statistics, but he never went shopping for a pickup truck.

Automakers can virtually make up the towing capacity they claim for their trucks and cars, rendering a key performance statistic all but meaningless.

That may be about to change.

DaimlerChrysler, Ford, General Motors, Honda and Toyota are working to create a standard test for the towing capacity they advertise to attract buyers.

Ironclad standards already control the claims automakers can make about fuel economy, horsepower and torque, but each company currently sets its own rules to evaluate towing capacity. Several automakers were publicly humiliated when they got caught using inflated horsepower numbers a few years ago, but there's no universally accepted objective measure of towing capacity.

This is no small deal. Towing capacity means as much to truck buyers as horsepower and torque do to speed freaks.

Towing capacity currently works on the honor system, but there's not much honor in the cutthroat pickup market. Virtually every time a new truck hits the market with class-leading towing capacity, its rivals magically rise to match it.

"Towing capacity is an incredibly powerful marketing tool," said GM trailering engineer Rob Krouse, who chairs the Society of Automotive Engineers committee that's developing a standard towing test.

The committee, which also includes representatives of trailer manufacturers, could have the new rule in place by the end of this year, Krouse said.

"A common standard means the customer will be able to compare apples to apples. People will know what they're getting," said Peter Frantzeskakis, vehicle engineering manager for Ford's Super Duty pickups.

The standard will define the minimum acceptable performance in a number of areas that affect safety and driving comfort, including:

• Acceleration to freeway speed.

• The ability to drive at a set speed for several miles up a defined slope.

• Braking capability from a set speed.

• Handling and stability in lane changes.

The standard will also specify what kind of trailer automakers must test with and will require automakers to test with vehicles that match the models they sell, rather than testing with lightweight stripped trucks that lack common features like power seats and windows. The new standards will also apply to SUVs and cars.

"If we all test the same way, the customer can use the knowledge to make informed decisions," Krouse said. "In the end, he will get a better product."

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 23:31:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">• Acceleration to freeway speed.

• The ability to drive at a set speed for several miles up a defined slope.

• Braking capability from a set speed.

• Handling and stability in lane changes.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Of the four criteria, I really don't care about the first two. Its being able to stop, and not having the tail wag the dog that I'm concerned about.
I've driven way too fast, at times, with my 7,000LB boat and trailer...fortunatley for me, I've been able to stop when needed. I've had a trailer tire blowout and not had a problem stopping. I've driven over the Rocky Mountains and not had a problem slowing down on the steep grades and not had a problem getting up the steep grades either. I've presently got brakes on only one axle -- I will not be going on any more long trips until I've added the second set of brakes.
Even though gas costs more than milk, I will still tow Labarca around in search of the perfect gunk hole. She deserves it and so do I.
I can still drive to the ocean or to another lake for less than the price of a plane ticket and chartering a boat.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2008 : 08:18:48

I'm glad to see the standardization... As it stands, "Towing Capacity" is a number reached via a tug of war between the marketing and legal departments in each company, after some mathematical modelling of liability cost probabilities. (I know.) As for the first two criteria, a few years ago I rented a Suzuki SUV that couldn't pull my wife, me, and our suitcases (all inside) over the passes in Colorado--it's proper towing capacity should have been a negative number. I'm glad I hadn't actually bought the thing.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2008 : 10:03:33

Right, acceleration, as long as it is in seconds rather than minutes, and modest speed loss up a long grade doesn't bother me, I've passed enough RV's going 30 mph up Tennessee mountains to count. Braking and stability are the issues. Big vented discs on my Grand Cherokee provide easily controlled stops, and my experience with the electronic sway control on my, and other, new vehicles has been very impressive.

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2008 : 10:24:44

My 2000 Mountaineer tows my 25 just fine but I would never try to cross a mountain range with it. I am the guy who recommends electric brakes in marginal towing situations to off load some of the braking and fishtail control to the trailer.

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