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racing rules question

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/13/2008 : 23:38:56

If you read my report about the Coronado Islands race in the Main Forum, you'll know it was a downwind start with an ebb current, and I went up spin in the thick of the fleet soon after the start. Many boats started under spin. Soon I had the pole trimmed all the way forward and low, and was pointing just as hard under spin as I could and had the island in my sights. I was on course for the mark (although it was 12 miles away). I was on starboard tack. On my right were the extensive Pt. Loma kelp beds a choking thick mass of weed with stringers 50 feet long that could wrap the rudder and keel and kill my chances in this race. I was within 5 feet of this mass. I was in the thick of the fleet with boats all around - mostly non spin and all much bigger.

A 50 footer non spin boat to leeward started taking me up into the weeds. I could not go any higher under spin.

Does he have rights to luff me up even though I was on course?

I couldn't think of anything to do in this situation. I could not sail any higher under spin. I could not blow the spin sheet and let him go by - the sail would have blown into him. I could not go right into the kelp. The only thing I could think to do was pull down my spin sock and let him go by.

This is supposed to be a fun family fleet and I was told there has never been a protest in the history of the group.

I looked over at the guy on this big 50 footer and shrugged. He turned down and I eventually pulled ahead. I just held course and called his bluff.

Just curious about rules in this situation.

Also, how do you possibly do penalty turns under spin? No way I was going to do them, I would have taken the 3 minute penalty if he protested.

Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2008 : 06:28:32

Jim, good on ya for standing your ground! I think the applicable rule would be the rule on room at obstructions. My latest rule book is an old one, but I think it's in Part IV, Section C. Even though a boat has right of way, and has the right to take another boat to windward, there's a limit. He isn't allowed to run the opponent into a bridge abutment, or a buoy, or to run it ashore. We don't have kelp fields where I sail, so I've never heard of a case where someone tried to take his opponent up into a kelp field, but it sounds like the kelp field would come within the definition of an obstruction. The rule seems to be intended to keep the racing boats sailing within navigable waters, and the kelp field doesn't sound navigable to me.

I'd suggest you hail the other boat and ask for room at an obstruction, and then hold your course and don't let him force you into the kelp. Let him see you reach into a locker and get out your protest flag.

On a purely personal level, the guy sounds like he's trying hard to compensate for a teeny weenie.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2008 : 11:16:54

Jim, I think it would have made for an interesting time in the protest room!
Normally, if you hail another boat for "room at an obstruction" you are needing to tack - and he has to either tack immediately or hail you to tack (immediately) and he will keep clear.
It would be of interest, especially for future reference, if the kelp bed was found to meet the definition of an obstruction.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 09:32:49

So basically if there was no obstacle, or if kelp is not considered an obstacle, the guy could have taken me up to Los Angeles if he so desired (way above the course to the next mark). He never hailed "
coming up" or asked for room, though.

If that had happened I would have just had to come up until the chute collapsed and let him go by.

It did not, he turned down, but I was just wondering the rules when downwind in a mixed JAM and Spin fleet.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 10:47:39

Jim - the rules remain the same no matter what the composition of the fleet. If he had luffing rights he can "take you to LA" and your only hope would be to hail "obstruction" and hope that the protest committee upholds your thought that kelp qualifies as an obstruction.
Remember also that "when proper courses conflict, basic ROW rules apply". If you need to sail a higher course and are leeward boat and can justify that need, a boat going DDW needs to give way.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 04/16/2008 : 10:54:47

That's the way I see it, Jim. I think it's an obstruction, just like a bridge abutment would be an obstruction, and I don't think the rules would permit him to drive you into a kelp bed. But, I've never heard of a case like that involving a kelp bed, or anything similar, and don't know for sure. I'll bet some of the racers in that area have thought about the question before, and they might know what the consensus of opinion is. I feel strongly enough about it, however, that I wouldn't have hesitated to throw a red flag over it, if he persisted in driving you to windward until you actually got caught in the kelp. Apparently he was just bluffing, and you called his bluff.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2008 : 10:30:19

How did he obtain overlap?

the obstruction would be the gray area here. Kelp beds might qualify as a continuing obstruction, but it would, in my mind be no better than a coin toss maybe even less better odds. My hunch would be that the protest committee would have said you didn't have rights. (provided they had luffing rights) Breakwall or coral shelf - definitely.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2008 : 11:03:08

Jim: Given his course and your description, it sounds as if, after he crosses your bow, he ends up in the kelp. If that was not his plan, then his plan must have been to drive you into the weeds. Regardless of how the obstruction rule relates to kelp, that move seems to violate the spirit and tradition of the race. Maybe you should file a non-protest... a sort of warning shot across the weenie's bow. BTW, I bet SDYC has an interpretation on kelp.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2008 : 13:00:13

After reading further, unless that area was considered an obstruction in the SI's or NOR it probably doesn't meet the definition because however sloppy it might be you can sail through it. It would have to be un-navigable water, such as a depth issue, a seawall, a bridge, and be a continuous obstruction i.e. something that you didn't have the option to go around.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 18:33:38

No, kelp was not defined as an obstruction, nor considered as one, but all us locals know it can be a killer.

The big JAM boat achieved overlap by overtaking me on the port side, no surprise a 50 foot ketch would be just plain faster.

I think he was just screwing with me, I held my course and he fell off, eventually we seperated by miles and I have no idea how he finished.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2008 : 23:33:46

Well Jim, in case it comes up this weekend, any of the Coronado Islands would be considered an obstruction!

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 08:25:35

Jim, if it's not considered an obstruction, then there's a better alternative to letting him drive you into the kelp. Luff or de-trim your sails, kill your boatspeed, and fall behind him, and then sail clear of the kelp. All you'll suffer is a loss of a boat length or two and a brief loss of speed, but in a long race, I wouldn't think that would be disastrous, compared to getting caught in kelp.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2008 : 12:15:43

If he got you from port and not from behind and within 3 boatlengths of you he can take you to head to wind. That is usually when I'd start yelling something like Hey Swanson I wanna go over there! or I'm not your competition get off my @#$.

Alternatively, you could keep quiet then slow up and dip way down. Boat speed shoul die off quickly and in a 50 footer he would have flewn on by. Let him fly into the crap and get messed up.

As for the penalty turns, ideally you get the spare kite ready and rigged on the auxilliary spin halyard with the spare set of sheets. Douse the one flying, drop the pole to the deck and do your turns under main. You should be rigged with the jib sheet over the pole already if your bowman is worth his salt. Then hoist immediately coming out of the turns as if you were rounding the mark. If you want to get crazy, you hoist the jib prior to the douse. This would be followed by a spin peel, because you have the wrong kite up. Which would immediately be followed by the crew indicating you've used all your tack and gybe cards for the next 120 minutes so you will have to hold course while they hold cocktail hours in your honor.

Your assumption is correct, that will take more than 3 minutes to do. If he yells protest and throws up the red flag then fly your 'I' flag if applicable (that is usually a 20% hit, but can be altered by the SI's) file the paperwork and take the 3 minute hit - that is what it is there for. Most times you don't have that luxury so there sense in losing 2 hours from the party so you can be in the protest room over a 3 min. gig.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 18:59:09

Talking to local guys, no way is kelp considered an obstruction.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2008 : 19:33:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">This is supposed to be a fun family fleet<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
There is no such thing - Racing is Racing

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2008 : 06:48:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 
Your assumption is correct, that will take more than 3 minutes to do. If he yells protest and throws up the red flag then fly your 'I' flag if applicable (that is usually a 20% hit, but can be altered by the SI's) file the paperwork and take the 3 minute hit - that is what it is there for. Most times you don't have that luxury so there sense in losing 2 hours from the party so you can be in the protest room over a 3 min. gig.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Could someone translate this into newby for me? What is an I flag for? What are SI's?

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