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motor walk

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knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/19/2008 : 21:11:21

Jeez! I go to back out with rudder and motor hard to stbd and the aft swings out to the port...made me look stupid in front of lots of May 24 spectators...Are there any tricks?

Peter Keddie
Turkey Point, ON
79 Catalina 25 Fixed Keel #1050

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 21:20:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by knightwind
 Jeez! I go to back out with rudder and motor hard to stbd and the aft swings out to the port...made me look stupid in front of lots of May 24 spectators...Are there any tricks?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup. Give a burst to get you going (with the motor turned slightly to pull you to starboard), and then idle down. When the motor is trying to make the boat accelerate, in reverse it pulls the stern to port, and in forward it pushes the stern to starboard (turning the boat to port). It's commonly called "prop walk". If you idle down so you're coasting, the keel and rudder can do their things. (If you have a swing keel, it's best to have it down.) Also, when backing, a momentary burst in Forward with the motor turned the other way to push the stern around, can virtually make you pivot on your keel.

Another thing: Don't push the tiller all the way over close to 90 degrees--there it acts more as a brake than a rudder. If you limit yourself to about 45-50 degrees, the boat will turn as sharply as it is able to, which is pretty sharply.

(May 24... are you imagining things, or is Canada that far ahead of the US?)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/19/2008 21:28:35

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 21:21:20

A rudder is seldom held more than 45 degrees, after that it turns into a brake. A sailboat only behaves when moving, get it moving before you begin turning, feel the turn, it is about net forces.

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knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 22:02:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 [quote]Originally posted by knightwind
 Jeez! I go to back out with rudder and motor hard to stbd and the aft swings out to the port...made me look stupid in front of lots of May 24 spectators...

(May 24... are you imagining things, or is Canada that far ahead of the US?)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We always call the long weekend "May two four" ... eh!

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 22:34:51

I always shove off when first backing up out of the slip. It gets me going and I'm able to adjust the position of the boat relative to the dock with a slight push or pull.

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 22:35:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
Another thing: Don't push the tiller all the way over close to 90 degrees--there it acts more as a brake than a rudder. If you limit yourself to about 45-50 degrees, the boat will turn as sharply as it is able to, which is pretty sharply.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I really hate to disagree with Dave. He is clearly a man with a lot of sailing knowledge and he's always generous with his help but......

This "45 degree " thing isn't always true. We've just recently had this discussion. The rudder can certainly be effective past 45 degrees. Particlularly at slow speeds. Maybe, ONLY at slow speeds like when you're approaching your dock. Once the turn begins, the angle of the rudder decreases relative to the direction of stern travel. So, I agree that you shouldn't quickly turn your rudder 90 degrees. BUT, slowly going "hard over" as the turn progresses <s>may be </s> is very helpful in maneuvering the boat in tight spots around a dock.

I guess the point of all this is that in sailing, like most other life endeavours, there are few absolutes.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/19/2008 : 23:05:31

Sort of true, John, but essentially only if the engine is pulling/pushing the stern in the same direction. Otherwise, 90 degrees just doesn't work well, and should be resisted in most situations. Basically, the boat turns only if it's moving, and a hard-over rudder just slows it down. I bring it up from time to time because it's somewhat counter-intuitive and a common error. Peter's experience is evidence of my (and Frank's) point.

BTW, in reverse, the rudder really wants to go hard-over, so it's even easier to make that mistake.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/19/2008 23:18:27

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 05:11:32

Actually, the only thing you did wrong was launching when there were spectators present. Rcmd practice first times out when no one is around - Then you will do great ! and if you don't....then there is no one to document the event and you then do not have to tell anyone. Only tell the story when you do it right ...and in front of the spectators. They will be impressed and we will marvel over your proficiency !

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 08:00:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 Actually, the only thing you did wrong was launching when there were spectators present. Rcmd practice first times out when no one is around - Then you will do great ! and if you don't....then there is no one to document the event and you then do not have to tell anyone. Only tell the story when you do it right ...and in front of the spectators. They will be impressed and we will marvel over your proficiency !
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I hear the good spirit in this post BUT... if you are not competent then you owe it to the owners of the boats around you to have a few spotters around. AND if you do hit someone's boat be sure to tell them about it no matter how slight the bump.
Few things tick me off like watching a boat bounce of someone's outboard and then watch the skipper check his own boat for scratches and sail away.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 08:07:29

Hey Knightwind - we also had a bit of a rodeo trying to get our boat out of the launch slip.

What gave us trouble was:
Too low revs to overcome the wind when reversing out (due to engine trouble)
The engine not wanting to stay in the "down" position in reverse. There must be a tilt lock that I have yet to find.
And that the weather for the weekend was incredibly crappy, and I can't remember a 2-4 thats been this awful in recent history.

We were fortunate that no one else was a round and that the crane operator was patient while we sorted things out.

If you want folks on here to know what you mean with the 2-4 weekend, just tell them you celebrate memorial day a little early

Edited by - Prospector on 05/20/2008 08:07:50

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 08:56:04

Sometimes we think we have to use the motor, just because we have one. It's often easier to untie all the lines, walk the boat back, and step aboard, giving it a push out of the slip as you step aboard. Whether it's easier to push it out or to use the motor depends mostly on the wind direction. Before you leave the dock, check the wind and decide which will be easier.

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Cbucki1
1st Mate

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USA
47 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 09:08:24

May 24..gosh I miss canada...eh!
Hope you had a 24 pack of Molson to celebrate the long weekend

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 10:44:03

I'm with John, my rudder goes passed 45 degrees every time I come into the slip.

When coming in to the slip with the outboard in neutral, I sit up on the transom ledge with my back against the stern pulpit and when I do my pivot, my tiller is up against my chest.

As you can see in this picture, we barely have a boatlength to manuever between the docks, so the ability to pivot on one's keel is extremely helpful.

Edited by - dlucier on 05/20/2008 11:47:07

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 13:13:33

OK, OK... I'll give you 75... All I'm saying is I've seen people push it hard over and run into things. And in reverse, it tries to push itself all the way over, and people run into things. I was trying to help a newbie understand why his boat didn't respond as he thought it would, due to prop-walk and rudder-brake.

UH-OH... Copyright infringement...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 05/20/2008 13:15:19

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 21:59:29

Don,

I'm in the same boat as you. I've got only a few more feet than you to manuever and the wind is almost always across my slip. Once I get most of the way out of my slip I swing the tiller and the motor to get the back of the boat coming around and I usually have the tiller in my chest. Once I get the back moving in the direction I want I kick it into forward and swing the rudder and motor to the other side and the boat pivots around the keel and I'm on my way.

If I didn't swing the tiller and motor as hard as I do I would have a lot more turn to complete after shifting into forward.

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