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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/20/2008 : 12:12:33

Tonight I'm heading to the chandlery to get some bits and bobs for the boat. One of the discoveries over the weekend that left me going Hmmm... was that the tack of our mainsail is held in place by a badly worn nut and bolt.

Is this the common holder, or should there be some sort of pin arrangement with a split ring or cotter pin? I can live with the nut and bolt, and even see where it is less likely to catch and tear the sail than other arrangements, but I just wondered if I should be picking up something else.

A second item I am wondering about is foresail attachment. we currently have 2 jibsheets which are tied with bowlines to the clew of the foresail. While this arrangement works, the knots tend to catch on each tack, making for a less than smooth transition.I would prefer to see one continuous line with a "cow hitch" as suggested here on another thread, or an alpine butterfly loop with a snapshackle for faster sail changes. What do other folks have?

Finally, the clew of the mainsail is attached to the outhaul with my shoelaces right now. This make keeping my shoes on difficult. I am thinking another small snapshackle will do the trick, but again am open to suggestions from other folks who may have other suggestions. If you are considering using shoelaces beware that chafing will be an issue, and this can lead to blisters (both will be on your feet).

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 12:28:47

The snap shackle will work, but you'll probably get a lot attention as you walk around.

More to the point, if the clew line is liable to chaffing, then it would be a real pain if it broke underway. Ours is secured with a regular D shackle.

Would not recommend anything metal at the clew of the jib, your hitch ideas are the way to go.

Our mainsail tack is secured to the front of the boom by a 2"(approx) D shackle.

Paul

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 12:31:52

The main sail tack is held in place by a clevis pin. (1/4"?)

As to the genoa sheets, I go the continuous line with cow hitch route. If memory serves me, on my previous boat with hank on sails, I believe I used a continous line with a cow hitch on a snap shackle to make sail changes easier.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 12:40:33

The shoelaces are the best solution I've heard yet--something for the Tech Tips.

A cow hitch will also tend to catch on a shroud, but it might be a little cleaner than two bowlines. Some PVC rollers on the forward lowers might solve that. Somebody here did something using a wooden "toggle"--I believe in a loop pushed through the jib clew... I can't remember it well enough to describe it. I'm not a fan of metal hardware on the jib clew--when it's flailing, somebody on the foredeck could be injured by it. But racers do use snap-shackles...

I used a bolt and nut on the mains'l tack. A shoulder bolt (no threads against the eye) is best.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 14:08:29

Dave,

We have the 1" dia rollers. I was thinking that I might want to replace them with something beefier, but at the risk of looking stoopid, I haven't gone and tried it.

My thought is that I could buy 1-1/2" white pvc vaccum tubing, and use end caps drilled to fit the shrouds. I know this sounds crazy, but the smaller 1" dia. tubes were never long enough or big enough to be effective on the boat we learned to sail on. I was thinking the bigger diameter, cut to be about 3 feet long would do a better job of letting the sheets slide around to the other side of the boat. I envision the vaccum tubing beeing lined with foam pipe insulation and closed cell foam packing material to get a better fit on the shrouds.

Of course there is always the possiblity that the problem is more with the guy pulling the lines.

Here is how a tack goes on our boat... Anything here that would make us mire likely to hav ethe sail and lines fouled on the shrouds than what other folks are doing?

Aggressive tacking:
1. Helmsman - "Prepare to tack"
2. Trimmer - "Ready"
3. Helmsman - "Helm's a-lee"
4. Mainsail swings across, jib trimmer stands by until jib is back-winded
5. As jib is backwinded, jib trimmer blows windward sheet, and hauls away on leeward sheet.
6. Trimmer hauls in leward sheet to obtain appropriate sail shape, and cleats off.

Passive tacking:
As above, except that main and jib are brought across the boat together in step 4 and step 5.

Edited by - Prospector on 05/20/2008 14:11:17

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 15:23:44

Issue one: I use a D-shackle. Since sail isn't going to come off the boom very often, I only use snap shackles in applications that justify their cost over regular shackles. If you will see yourself using them frequently while underway or in situations where time is an important safety factor, get snap shackles. If not, don't waste your money. If you're a racer, you probably don't really care about money anyway.

Issue two: I use a cowhitch with a continuous line. Less weight in light winds and the reasons Dave gave.

Issue three: wear slip-on shoes!

You might want something just a tad stronger than shoe laces there though.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 17:25:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Issue one: I use a D-shackle...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">For the mainsail tack? I don't know the C-250 in detail--on my C-25, I think that'd let the tack ride too high off the boom and possibly strain the sail at the forward end of the boom kerf. Thus, the simple bolt/nut for the proper alignment. (I guess that wouldn't be an issue with a loose-footed main.)

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2008 : 18:33:16

Good catch, Dave.

OK, so I confused the top from the bottom of the sail for a minute.

. Senior moment? Oh yeah, not quite there yet, I hope.

I use a clevis pin & split ring

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 08:05:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Of course there is always the possiblity that the problem is more with the guy pulling the lines<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I believe that this hits the nail on the head. My crew would always try for an aggressive tack where the genoa would "pop" like a gunshot comming on to the new tack. More often than not this would result in the sail hanging up in the shrouds. what we do now is release before the Genny is fully back winded (in moderate to heavy air) and let the clew "blow" past the shrouds before trimming in.
In light air one of the crew will walk the sail accross.

If you have hank on sails and use a single sheet with a cow hitch you will need a seperate sheet for every sail in your inventory (I also don't like the use of additional hardware on the clew of the jib or genoa) and you still can hang the sail up on the shrouds.

Edited by - Renzo on 05/21/2008 08:06:52

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 08:07:36

So the shopping trip was a success (for the chandlery) I came home with a swiveling snapshackle for the jib, a D-shackle for the clew of the main, 75 feet of line for jib sheets, an infant lifejacket, a harness & tether for our foredecker, and a cheeseburger and fries.

After spending all that, I was looking at Mountain Equipment Co-op's website (Canadian outdoor gear company) and realized that the "sailing tether" I bought at the chandlery is exactly the same as the "climbing tether" sold at MEC for less than half the price. Also, "climbing webbing" can be bought for considerably less than "sailing webbing" to fashion jacklines out of.

See MEC's "climbing gear" here http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_listing.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302691525&bmUID=1211375187050

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2008 : 16:59:10

I have used a cow hitch in the past when I had roller furling and didn't have to change sails and sheets. I now have hank on sails again and don't want to go to the trouble and expense of separate sheets for each sail. For two years now, I have used what I believe is called a "dutch toggle." It takes a little playing around to get the sizing right, but so far has worked flawlessly. I think it will continue to do so as long as the dummy here doesn't get in a real sail flogging contest. It is made as follows: middle up your line and form a bight at the center (from memory, mine is about four inches long) Clap a good strong tight seizing on that bight to make it into an eye. This eye should pass through the clew of the jib. For the toggle, take a piece of rope about 8 inches long, whip both ends well, make a good tight figure eight knot in one end. I think a monkey's fist would be great, but I haven't worked up the energy to disassemble the gizmo just to re-do it. Seize the piece onto one part of the jib sheet (mine is on the sheet which runs to port because I like to insert the eye through the clew from starboard. I suppose I should mention that you need to make the figure eight knot piece first, cause you need it in hand to size the eye properly. You want it so that the eye passes through the clew and the figure eight knot fits cleanly but not too loosely through the eye. When everything fits neatly take a needle and thread and sew all the ends down well. Changing sheets from sail to sail is now as quick as you can make it and there is no lethal piece of stainless steel hardware banging around on deck looking for teeth and eyeballs. There is an extra pad eye on my fore deck and when I take the sail off I shackle the toggle to that pad eye using a small shackle which remains on the pad eye.

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2008 : 15:11:56

This is only partially on topic but...I always have a variety tray full of clevis pins, cotter pins, and ring cotters on the boat. I can't tell you how many times it has been handy for myself and occasionally my neighbors. I'm sure a few of you out there have been raising their mast, looked at a clevis pin and thought...I really should replace that!

Edited by - on

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