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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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New C-250 Rudder Aprroved

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wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/23/2008 : 09:47:17

Dear C-250 Sailors

At our last Board meeting we overwhelmingly approved a new rudder design for the C-250 to improve #1 boat handling and #2 racing.
Blair's Wind and Wood Boats of Clarkston Washington has designed an new rudder that is longer, wider and just 5lbs heavier to improve the C-250 design. Randy Blair has locked the Price in at $825.00 plus shipping for the next year. He may be contacted at 509-758-0636 for more info. Look for an article in August mainsheet for all the details. We feel that this will be a great improvement for our C-250 members and safety always prevails. If someone could tell me how to post pictures I will put one on this posting.

Bill Meinert
Commodore
Sailing Longwind #1408

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 10:32:26

Bill,

Is the Idasailor C250 rudder an approved rudder?

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 10:34:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by wmeinert@kconline.com
 If someone could tell me how to post pictures I will put one on this posting.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's just sad Bill.

No website, what kind of warranty comes from a mom and pop? Seems very expensive. What is it made out of? Who did the sea trials? Is it recommended for both keel configurations? Can the factory gudgeons handle the additional loads generated by the increase in area? Does it come with all hardware? What about groundings, seems dangerous. Isn't the Ida already approved?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 11:03:04

I thought for a rudder to be approved, it need only be commercially available to all competitors which would mean rudders made by Idasailor, Foss, and the like would be okay, right?

Looking over the C250 Class rules, I discovered there are no C250 Class rules!

Edited by - dlucier on 05/23/2008 11:04:03

wmeinert@kconline.com
Past Commodore

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USA
353 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 13:24:10

In response to several questions here, yes it can be configured on all C-250 models, As far as the warranty, you'll have to check with the manufacture, I wasn't provided the info, but there is no warranty with any rudder we use that I know of. Yes all Ida rudders are approved. In setting the approval with this rudder we required a letter of manufacture from the maker to guarantee availability and standards, we have the letter and he has at least set a price for one year of $825.00 plus shipping but it is also based on cost of materials, if you haven't priced a rudder lately look at Catalina direct's price for the IDA rudder and you'll see they have gone up significantly this year. As far as testing, the rudder was originally built for one of our sailors in McCall Idaho on lake Payette, and having personally sailed on that lake under some very extreme conditions if she is happy with it (and she is a racer) I'm quite sure everyone else will be too, as far as pintal loads, this rudder actually from my understanding reduces weather helm which reduces load. But like all boats, it's not necessarily the equipment, it's the sailors skill level when using it. They do catch 50lb fish on 2lb test line and loose the same fish on 100lb line, it's all in the skills involved. Here is the email address I just called for. Randy will help answer any other questions you might have.

trijuanon@webtv.net

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 14:00:20

It all sounds great, I hope it can help move some weight out of the bow of a few boats, that would be very cool.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 14:13:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Looking over the C250 Class rules, I discovered there are no C250 Class rules! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Rules? We don't need no stinking rules.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I hope it can help move some weight out of the bow of a few boats<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It would need to be made out of anti-gravity material.

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jtd
Deckhand

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18 Posts

Response Posted - 05/23/2008 : 22:21:57

I cant tell you all enough how disappointed I am in the sailing qualities of my 2005 wb cat250

. I have tried adding the water tank to find negligible results. I have to reef in under 10 kts of wind. I also discovered one of my lower shrouds has to be replaced due to one of the wire wraps failing. Now Im supposed to buy an 800 dollar rudder. I made the mistake of buying this boat without first sailing it. Never again. I'll wait to see how this next rudder pans out.

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Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2008 : 09:27:56

Jeff, I am talking out my butt here but... I think most WB boats are initially tender but lock in if you let them heel to their balance point. Maybe you just need to let her go over until she finds her angle of dangle. I am under the impression the 250 does have its issues but I think you can be happy with the boat, a lot of people I respect on this forum are happy with theirs..

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2008 : 10:58:38

Jeff, To understand the control issues on the 250, one has to think beyond the box of typical sailboat balance discussions because the answer just isn't there. The yaw issues and thus rudder requirements to overcome them are related to the hull form required of internal ballast... it is not the simple issue of sail balance.

Stating it as simple as I can, the hull form produces asymmetrical lift when heeling and the design missed the issue and didn't center that lift force near the CLR. The center of that lift force is aft of the CLR and thus produces strong yaw forces when the boat heels excessively.

As a consequence, the 250 needs tamed by several methods including, reefing discipline, raking the center board aft to move the CLR aft, weighting the bow down to move asymmetrical lift center forward and having an oversized rudder with enough control to overcome the strong yaw force. One is wasting their time thinking that the yaw can be controlled simply by more jib to balance the sail plan. The force is so strong that it can overwhelm the helm even under jib alone.

The rudder ends up serving the greatest but not the singular task in this effort and because the boat cannot be balanced when heeled excessively, it must have rudder control so any rudder that is too short and growing shorter yet by heeling angles will fail to provide adequate helm control.

Though I disagree with Catalina on some issues, I've no axe to grind with them. My goal is understanding reality as it exist. I understand that they wished to provide a rudder that allowed launching and retrieving of the 250 with the rudder shipped and that they no longer wanted to produce a beaching rudder... but that locked them into a rudder that does not have the needed depth to provide adequate control. I understand that most sailors don't sail aggressive venues and that the shorter rudder suits their needs. My words are to the sailor who does sail aggressive venues... you must go beyond what Catalina is prescribing for you.

Also, don't for a second think that the 250 wb is incapable of very aggressive sailing. Once it is understood and managed the 250 wb makes an outstanding rough conditions platform. The water ballast scheme actually becomes a huge plus. Where most low and center ballasted boats are maddening in a sea way like the Great Lakes can offer, the C250 water ballast can feel completely comfortable in such conditions because she is not given to hobby horsing as those center keeled boats do.

I'll come straight out and say that of the two models, the wing keel 250 is by far the better choice for most sailors but if one cruises the Great Lakes as I've done in the past, the water ballast version is more capable because it is heavier and can ride a sea way in comfort. Many many times, I've come in from a passage in rough conditions having experienced little discomfort to hear comments from those who had stayed holed up in much larger boats about how uncomfortable it must have been and I'm sure on their boat it would have been.

Here is what I suggest for your sailing venue... Call Catalina and talk with Gerry Douglas. He has discussed this issue of aggressive sailing with me on a couple of occasions and he knows the shorter third generation rudder is inadequate but don't expect him to admit it. He is marketing the 250 to those who mostly small lake sail. Tell him that the stock rudder has inadequate depth, and that needed is the 3rd long as is being fitted to the wing keel boat. He may expect you void the warranty if you fail to pull the rudder before hauling out, but agree to his stipulation and go for the longer. In the past he has provided these kinds of solutions to your sailing needs at cost to Catalina, which should be far cheaper than the rudder offering listed in this thread.

Better yet, do a search for a 2nd generation beaching rudder and head... if one can be found, it is the best rudder available for the water ballast boat combining the needed control, the ability to balance it adequately and the ability to launch and retrieve and gunk hole around the Great Lakes.

I understand your frustration... I've been there but found the answers to tame the beast.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 05/24/2008 10:59:43

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2008 : 13:12:21

JD is our first 'real' boat, so I don't have long time ownership or other big boat experience to draw upon (a few boat charters really doesn't count)

Soooo. We found those frustrations that Jeff mentions regarding 'tender' but we didn't know it was 'tender' we thought it was our sailing technique.
We added a 2nd water tank up front, but we also have a 72lb generator on top of the fuel locker. We don't use the aft berth for sleeping, but we keep the 'junk' down there (food, equipment and the A/C unit) and we added a 2nd battery becuase our sailing style is to go out for 3-5 days each trip.

We've owned JD for 3 years (how time flies!) and we're now getting to manage her sailing properties much better.

Last year we were sailing in company of Tom Potter (tall rig wing keel towing a dink) and another boat along a narrow channel.. of course, we weren't racing! .. just trying to sail better!

But we held our own in a pre-storm stiff breeze with just a 110% jib and full main. (it really was fun!) But we could tell that we were working the boat a lot harder than Tom and the other boat skipper.

Did we consider the boat tender? Nah! Just a lot of fun.

We just purchased a used 150% jib and will try it out next weekend, can't wait!

Paul

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/25/2008 : 16:01:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jtd
 I can't tell you all enough how disappointed I am in the sailing qualities of my 2005 wb cat250

...I made the mistake of buying this boat without first sailing it. Never again.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sell it...If it's not meeting your minimum performance expectations for your sailing venue, just get rid of it.

My first boat got me into sailing, which was great and I'm thankful, but after years of trying to deal with its performance limitations, among other things, the frustrations began to suck the life out of sailing for me and my enthusiasm for this sport was beginning to wane. Fortunately, I got rid of that boat before throwing in the towel and bought something better suited to my needs. That new boat, my current one, re-ignited the fire in me (more like a wild fire) and I'm now totally possessed .

From the tone of your post, I sense that you may be headed down the same path of waning enthusiasm, so you might be better off selling the boat that is only frustrating you and getting something that makes you happy.

Either way, good luck.

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