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How long did it take you ?

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knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/05/2008 : 21:29:22

This is my first season sailing a 25 footer.
I got my CYA Whitesail level 1 on June 10 1978...sailing 12 foot lasers out in BC...and capsizing was always part of it...sometimes on purpose...sometimes not...and when sailing, especially in high winds I always felt..."on-the-edge" Kind of like having to be ready for a sudden possibly dangerous situation at any time...so it was difficult to relax.
Of course the purr of the tiller in your hand as you scream along pushing the edge was what it was all about.
So years later (after the odd excursion on fishing trips in small 12' aluminums with 9.8's) I find myself meeting a woman with a 16' bowrider with a 70hp Merc. We tool around on Lake Erie for a few seasons until the engine starts acting up and we decide to buy the Catalina 25 fulfilling one of my lifelong dreams....Apologies for the long preamble...still with me?

Here's my question...Ok just a bit more setup...When I was driving around the lake on the powerboats...there was always a feeling of control and security...even in bad weather and big waves...When I take the Cat out there's always a feeling of...nervousness? In nice light breezes it tends to subside but when I get her going 4 or 5 its like a flashback to that "on-the-edge" feeling. The last time we went out the mainsheet assembly broke...and we got stuck on a sandbar...so that doesn't help...So finally here's the question.

How long did it take you to get used to sailing to the point of feeling comfort and control?
Do you veteran sailors who scoff at reefing and laugh in the face of gales ever get nervous?

Peter Keddie
Turkey Point, ON
79 Catalina 25 Fixed Keel #1050

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 22:04:48

Veteran sailors don't scoff at reefing! It's the wannabies who think reefing is for sissies. In heavy air, a reefed boat can outrun the same boat with full canvas

One of these days--maybe next year, maybe this--you'll realize that the C-25 is much more comfortable and safe in nasty conditions than those little powerboats you're used to--especially with the right amount of sail up. Just forget the dinghy-style capsizing thing--it ain't gonna happen. If you make a big mistake, you might take some green water, but she'll come back up.

My favorite configuration on a blustery day was my 135 genoa alone--good drive with much less heeling force. Because it was on a roller furler, we could easily pull it out, adjust the size if it was really piping, and when we were done, pull the string to wrap it up. No muss, no fuss, and comfortable sailing in big puffs. You can try it with a hank-on sail, too--you'll find the boat performs better than under main alone. For more of a excitement, add the reefed main with the full jib.

How long did it take me? I used to relax on a Sunfish in 25 knot winds, with my butt over the side, skipping across the water in a plume of spray... That was 30-some year ago, when I'd been sailing things for 20-some years. So I have no idea. You're on a new, unfamiliar platform... it'll happen.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/05/2008 22:08:30

quilombo
Captain

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USA
301 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 22:12:55

Hey Peter, I know what you mean, I am in my first season of sailing period. I have had only about 4 years or so of powerboating and just couldnt take the gasoline prices anymore, I went from a 30 ft twin engine sport fishing boat to a 25 catalina, with absolutely no sailing experience at all. The first time out , (and Ive onlybeen out 3 times so far) it was really weird to feel the boat going sideways or as they say heeling over, but from what I understand now , you have to try real hard to tip one of these. I sail NY harbor, which is very very rough. I am docked in the Hudson River , which has incredibly strong currents. Its been interesting. To be honest, Im not quite sure that sailing is for me, however , I do like the fact of being able to still enjoy boating without the hassle of gas, or repairing engines constantly as I have been doing,
Im gonna tough it out this year and see how I feel at the end of the season, if I like it, I may consider buying a larger sailboat and staying with it. If not its back to power boating .
But back to your question, I still feel a little uneasy , but its getting easier and easier,

Just a question, are you using a roller furler for your jib? I do not, and am thinking of getting one as soon as I can afford it.

Edited by - quilombo on 06/05/2008 22:14:30

knightwind
Navigator

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Canada
114 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 22:59:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by quilombo
 Hey Peter, I know what you mean, I am in my first season of sailing period. I have had only about 4 years or so of powerboating and just couldnt take the gasoline prices anymore, I went from a 30 ft twin engine sport fishing boat to a 25 catalina, with absolutely no sailing experience at all. The first time out , (and Ive onlybeen out 3 times so far) it was really weird to feel the boat going sideways or as they say heeling over, but from what I understand now , you have to try real hard to tip one of these. I sail NY harbor, which is very very rough. I am docked in the Hudson River , which has incredibly strong currents. Its been interesting. To be honest, Im not quite sure that sailing is for me, however , I do like the fact of being able to still enjoy boating without the hassle of gas, or repairing engines constantly as I have been doing,
Im gonna tough it out this year and see how I feel at the end of the season, if I like it, I may consider buying a larger sailboat and staying with it. If not its back to power boating .
But back to your question, I still feel a little uneasy , but its getting easier and easier,

Just a question, are you using a roller furler for your jib? I do not, and am thinking of getting one as soon as I can afford it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I wish I had a roller furler...but first a depth finder.
For me, the tranquility of gliding along silently is...it.
We laugh at the guys pulling up to the gas pumps and have already found the sound of engines roaring around...disturbing the peace.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2008 : 23:09:09

Peter and Guglielmo,
I never really went through the power boat phase, although I've spent a lot of time on friend's boats as well as a really big gray one for several years in Uncle Sam's Navy and half a year on a REALLY big one as a civilian in Uncle Sam's service. My stomach never took well to small power boats, the movement is all wrong, big ships, no problem, but small boats, not so much. When I started sailing in the early 80's I spent a lot of time turning Sunfish & Dolphins upside down & having a ball. I graduated to catamarans and bought my first one about 15 years ago or so. I was supremely comfortable on that boat, even after I was dismasted once (cost $20 for the rigging replacement & another $20 for a pop rivet gun to get back into the water). Next I bought a San Juan 21, and it scared me, my first trip out was nearly my last. I'd sailed the boat a number of times before, but it was always with my friend who I bought it from, so if something went wrong, he could fix it. Getting back into my marina was a nightmare, or so I thought at first. After about the third time out I started to get a feel for the boat and the hang of getting back into the marina without killing my engine, or bumping into someone else's pride & joy. After probably the 10th time out, I was pretty comfortable, and eventually I didn't feel like I was sailing hard enough if I didn't have a rail in the water. I think if we lived on a big enough lake I'd have never sold that boat. Now with the Catalina, I'm still in the getting used to the boat phase. Plus I have Rita to think of, she has even less experience than I, even though we both raced on other folk's boats. She's afraid the boat's going to tip over (it won't except for extraordinary circumstances), and I'm just not used to having so much sail area to work with a tall rig. With one reef in my main, I have as much sail up as a regular C-250 w/ no reef.

My long winded point is, it gets better, and soon, maybe by the end of the summer, you'll feel very confident on your boat. Stay with the boat, and the forum, take advantage of the grumpy curmudgeons who make up this board, lots of these guys have been doing this for decades and most are very willing to share their experience. Get some good books on sail handling, anchoring, mooring, etc (search the archives, there are lots of good threads about books). Read them as you're waiting to go to sleep (or at least that's what I do). It keeps you pumped up for your next trip out, so you can try the new thing you learned, or hone the last thing you learned.

Soon enough, you'll be one of the grumpy curmudgeons advising the next group of nuggets.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 00:38:47

I feel more nervous about powerboats because as soon as the engine quits, you're hooped. With a sailboat, you've got back-up - as in extra sails and your outboard.
I was comfortable with my boat the first time I sailed it because the first time out I had an old salt with me who told me I made an excellent choice with this boat. I'd read this forum for a year prior to buying my boat, so I knew that the boat was capable and that the only thing lacking was my knowledge.
It took me an entire year to get the hang of how to sail it properly, or perhaps comfortably. That said, I'm still learning and fully expect to keep learning for many years.
I've been on a lot of boats and I get a feeling of either feeling safe or not, just the same as if I got into a good or a crappy car or a car with a bad driver.
I understood when I first sailed my C25, that because there are ~6,000 of these boats, the design must be sound. I understood that the only thing to fear was fear itself.
Intellectually, I know that the boat will handle just about anything that I am going to subject it to. I know that if I run aground or have to abandon the boat, I have a very capable tender, good foulies, a cel phone, VHF, Flares etc. I think a sailboat is inherently safer and offers more options for safety.
I've had powerboats. My sailboat can do everything that my powerboats ever did for me. I was never that interested in going fast in a powerboat - the true understanding of what I wanted from a boat, or any boat for that matter, finally dawned on me; I want somewhere to relax and hangout. A sailboat is a better platform for entertaining and relaxing and reading and hanging out than a powerboat. Racing and cruising are just great big side benefits.

Edited by - stampeder on 06/06/2008 00:46:26

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 08:33:20

We have so much more information than before, more accurate depth, weather, communications, locations. The fact that you can take the boat out as a novice is testament to all.

Some friends of the family took out one of our boats in the Apalachicola Bay leaving out with little idea of the coming weather. A 17 foot Starcraft with a 40hp and 2 feet of freeboard. A storm came their way. Walt says…. “Do you realize that we are in mortal danger?”. The name stuck.

I’ve had so much fun in Mortal Danger over the years. I would launch in an inland lake and follow out the deepest part of a creek on the clear water of the incoming tide. Powered in the shallows with an air cooled little kicker I’d put lattice sticks in the sand to mark my way and run offshore to fish for mackerel. Returning I’d drive straight into the beach, pull the big engine up and pull the boat over the sand before the breakers could swamp me. Then I’d follow the creek by way of the sticks marking the path obsured by the cloudy outgoing tide. We still use the boat with great joy in spite of the holes in the bottom. We run a 550GPH bilge pump you can shower in.

How long will it take to know your boat? I might take a lifetime, but oh what a life!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 08:36:50

>"there's always a feeling of...nervousness?"

The more you sail the faster and more completely the anxiety will go away... it is something you have to push through. Once you're on the 'other side' of he anxiety barrier, you find you're out there enjoying yourself. Just talk yourself through it... these boats are really pretty darn safe.

>"veteran sailors who scoff at reefing and laugh in the face of gales ever get nervous"

Heh... don't think many of use laugh at gales.

The answer is yes... of course we get occasionally get 'nervous'... but I avoid putting myself and the boat in uncomfortable situations. I pay close attention to the weather forecast and if it's not in my comfort zone, I simply stay at the dock and enjoy the boat in a different way.

I singlehand in a venue with lots of lee-shore 'issues' and as I'm getting older and less agile, my comfort zone is shrinking a bit. Being out in a cracking NW wind bashing through swells with the boat heeled so far I'm standing on the leeward seat doesn't have as much charm anymore. I find myself looking forward to heading for warmer waters in a few years. Comes with being a 'senior citizen' I reckon. :>)

Edited by - on

Frank Hopper
Past Commodore

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Pitcairn Island
6776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 08:42:10

The dozen or so dead people in our lake are power boaters, except for the one drunk sailor who went to the bow to pee and never came back. Powerboats die and swamp, sailboats are designed to float. The big issue for most newbies is letting go of the relationship of down and the floor of the boat, on a powerboat they are the same, on a sailboat there is no fixed relationship. Remember to focus on down, not the floor of the boat. We were out last weekend heeled 25 plus degrees and the high side was crowded so I went and stood on the radius of the lowside coaming, one hand on the backstay. That was where down was. People who don't find down wear out as their muscles are tensed trying to compensate and hang on... find down and stand there. The lowside is more comfortable because gravity is holding you there. As I was standing on the coaming edge I was standing over a lady friend who sails a Macgrggor 26 WB, the week before we had been sailing and she was uncomfortable with our angle of dangle, I explained to her that she could relax if she went to the lowside and sat along the settee longitudinally with her back against the cabin bulkhead and her feet up on the settee, last week there she was under me, very comfortable trying to reach the water with her hand.
A friend took a picture of us as we sailed by

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 09:00:15

Frank - Your a knoty.knoty boy

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 09:34:49

Peter,

I’ve had bigger and smaller, power and sail. I’ve never felt better than with this size and build of a boat. I love a Catalina 25. You learn how to drive, anchor and sail and I don’t think you can find a better boat. I can’t begin to tell you how happy it makes me to get to sail out, anchor up and relax, and now more that ever. I’ve never felt safer.

Roller furling is no big deal, I've never had a hanked on sail foul up but I've had a roller jam when it was blowing hard and I needed it to roll up.

Learn it live it love it.. it is a great ride...

Keep you shoes on, knees bent, and a hand on the rail. Smile..

You'll figure it all out...

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 09:42:48

There's a swing keel for ya!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I want somewhere to relax and hangout. A sailboat is a better platform for entertaining and relaxing and reading and hanging out than a powerboat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Stampeder--my little power boat parties 10.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 10:04:06

I also Dinghy sailed as a kid.

Spent years in a canoe - ever tried to paddle across a lake with whitecaps around you? Moved into Whitewater paddling with a bunch of guys who only went out when there was flood warnings. The Ottawa river was the standby when we couldn't find a good run nearby.

Compared to the canoe runs I've mde, sailing is very comfortable. I can remember being in a powerboat as a kid going fishing with my dad at the cottage we rented. It was one of those aluminum deals, and it felt like a jackhammer the way it pounded the waves. I was not impressed. I have rarely stepped into a powerboat since then.

For me sailing is both peaceful and exhillarating much the way wilderness canoeing is. I don't have to yell over an engine, and I am moving with the water. I am part of my surroundings rather than something fighting its way through it. I am very relaxed out on the water. Often my wife is stressing while I am placid. I figure its a smallish lake we're on. I have a level head, and I know my boat can survive anything our situation can throw at it. As long as I'm attached to the boat, nothing will happen. I've been in a lot worse situations while mountain biking, paddling, skiing, etc.

Maybe I'm too laid back.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 12:00:33

I had a 25 foot power boat that was a nightmare with engine problems and things breaking all the time. I bought it new for $45K and sold it in a year for $25K.

I next had a 40 foot power boat with twin Cat 3208 natural (no turbo)diesels. Nothing ever broke and I sailed this boat about 10,000 miles including a 5,000 mile year long trip Milwaukee to the Bahamas. But there is a level of anxeity in owning a $100K boat that you just can't get away from, plus the thought that an engine repair could easily cost $20K. Anchoring a 20,000 lb boat can be a worry.

Then I got my Catalina 25 for $5K cash. I now have more miles and more hours in her than in the other 2 boats combined - year long trip not withstanding. I had a Sunfish as a kid but never really sailed a keelboat. I never had so much fun on the water, nor have gone so far, so cheaply.

It took me about a day to learn to handle this boat under power. It took me about 3 months to feel comfortable sailing. I asked a lot of questions on this forum, read a lot of books.

More importantly - I just sailed right through my initial fears and anxeity.

I know how you feel. Go anyhow.

This boat is stout, simple. If you run aground worst case you can jump in the water and push her off. If you drag anchor, paddle another one out in a kayak and pull her off. There is nothing to fail, nothing much to worry about. If the engine fails, sail back in. If there is no wind, get a tow.

Now, after 4 years and 10,000 miles in my Catalina 25 I usually feel totally 1 with the boat. I love a windy day, spray in my face, boat heeled to 40 degrees, hiking out, first reef in, small headsail up.

The key to this is "one step at a time" Don't go out now in 30 knots of wind. Do go in 10. Do be prepared. Make sure the reef works. Get a good engine.

Challenge yourself everytime the weather is just a little bit worse than you have expereinced before.

Also know the limits of the boat - which I would set at 40 knots of wind and breaking seas bigger than 12 feet.

There's been many days when I am the only boat out. It's blowing and big seas. Double reefed with 60% jib on. I like to see what Indiscipline III and I can take. Stay close to the harbor. What's the worse that can happen? You get wet.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 12:17:43

Lots of good thoughts posted. Here are a few to add:

1. Remember that your mainsheet gives you tremendous control. Play with it and learn to control the heel.

2. Read books. There are lots of good sailing books and the more you know about sail theory and practice, the more comfortable you will be.

3. Keep your equipment in top condition. You have experienced a mainsheet failure. My experience is that equipment failures are the things that create dangerous situations. Check you standing rigging often. Heeling over at 30 degrees is child's play in comparison to losing your mast, rudder, or keel in heavy wind/seas..

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/06/2008 12:19:50

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 12:52:36

I think a lot of the nervousness is strictly a healthy fear of the unknown. The more you know about your boat's abilities the better you will feel. Your C-25 will not capsize unless it is laying over from a powerful gust or gale and is hit on the bottom by a very large wave. My wife calls it "The Weeble", it will lay over, but there is a point where the sails are depowered because the wind is passing over the length of them.

I know also that I get nervous if I'm not confident my rigging is all in order, meaning that I've inspected it and know nothing is worn or loose. Right now I'm in the process of having a new mainsail built, it's going to replace my old kevlar/mylar racing sail. I had that sail up last weekend in 15kts + whitecaps. I've been expecting it to fail for a long time and that makes me nervous. After the hard beating it took over the last several weeks it's started to show delamination at the leech, but the kevlar is holding up and showing no signs of failing. Knowing this takes away any apprehension I had that the mainsail might blow out.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that confidence in your abilities and the abilities of your boat will make the nervousness go away. Work on getting good at sailing your boat in light to moderate air, and then start going out when the wind is a bit heavier. Once confident again, sail in yet stronger wind. If you keep doing this, you will eventually have no fear of going out into gale force winds, though you may have to just coast bar-poles, you won't be afraid of it.

A couple of things that will help:

Practice reefing and taking out reefs in lighter air, do it over and over until you have the process down, this way you'll know just how to manage reefing when you need to do it. If you don't have a simplified reefing system, go to your local sailmaker and ask him to install one for you, anything that is easier to do under pressure is helpful.

Also make a point of going out with your crew and doing practice drills of tacking and jibing. In a hard blow a flogging sail will cause the boat to heel inordinately and lose speed and will unnerve a lot of people, if you and your crew can tack (and jibe) and have sails trimmed quickly, it will go a long way towards reducing apprehension. This goes along with practicing in heavier and heavier air also. It's best to save practice sessions for those who crew on a regular basis and to do them when only those folks are on board. Don't drag practice sessions out too long, or it will take the fun out of sailing, I find 20 minutes to 1/2 hour is plenty long enough for either tacking or jibing drills.

Don't forget you're out there to have fun.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 14:47:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A friend took a picture of us as we sailed by
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Frank, don't be afraid to ask questions about how to sail.

Edited by - on

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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1608 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2008 : 14:54:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">There's a swing keel for ya!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want somewhere to relax and hangout. A sailboat is a better platform for entertaining and relaxing and reading and hanging out than a powerboat.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stampeder--my little power boat parties 10.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, you've got a point there Dave. We can only fit 8 on our party boat, but that's because we like to have room to fall over.
We tend to tell a lot of stinkpotter jokes and fall over laughing.
Present company excepted, of course.

By the way, I'd like to propose a new smiley face. Perhaps we could call it 'Sarge'. The intent being, that when we denigrate powerboats, we can attach a 'Sarge' smilie and Dave would know he was exempt. (except for this thread you party animal)

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2008 : 10:58:27

I kept this little quote on my desk for years:

"Familiarity with danger makes a brave man braver, but less daring. Thus it is with seamen; he that goes most often round Cape Horn goes most circumspectly."

Herman Melville

Keep the hank on jib.
Learn the boat's capabilities and limitations.
Learn your own capabilities and limitations.
Over the course of time both will grow. And if you ever get caught out in a real blow in a small power boat, you will quickly wish you were back aboard a well-found and properly handled sailboat.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 06/07/2008 : 17:41:42

Great advice. Also, learn to heave to. Do a search here on this 'site, has been discussed many times. Very important maneuver for both safety and sanity, as well as a spiffy way to have lunch without taking the sails down.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2008 : 10:30:12

All great responses - my short answer is 1.5 seasons, of 2x per week during the May - October window.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2008 : 16:26:04

Learned on a friend's C-25 over 5 years. Then bought my own C-25. Sometimes we would get nervous with strong winds or bad weather. My friend has sailed by the seat of his pants, now for about 14 years. He taught me a lot, and we had a wonderful time.

I get nervous as a reaction, but I am concerned proactively. After learning a lot on the Association Forum and then from a borrowed copy of Rousmaniere's "Annapolis Book of Seamanship" and finally by reading most of Chapman's "Piloting and Seamanship", as well as reading lots on the web, I know more about the boat's systems.

Nowadays I am concerned about certain aspects of some systems on my boat and about some weather conditions. But I don't get nervous.

Happy sailing!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2008 : 20:34:50

"Concern" is good. We all need to retain some concern.

Edited by - on

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.