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What rules did I break???

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/09/2008 : 10:41:06

I am wondering if I broke some rules on our Sunday race start, let me run you guys through th escenario, and then you can let me know if I should have been protested, our fleet is very forgiving.

So i nearly started with the spin fleet (oops!) and ran down the line to avoid crossing it with them, found myself down at the low end of the line on starboard tack broad reaching in clear air with 4 minutes to our class start. My crew was Chuck (11 yr old daughter, and we were in a bad spot compared to the rest of the fleet, and needed to get up to the preffered end of the line (pin end).

We spun the boat and broad reached on a port tack back up the line to the preferred end, but now were too close to the line, although at the pin end, with a minute and a half until start.

In order to buy time, I turned the boat down so we were beam reaching, aimed straight into the fleet on port tack, and found a hole, which I went down the side of. Its a scary moment staring down the entire fleet with little experience and no extra muscle on board.

Once I found a big enough spot (just behind the second boat) we spun the boat back through 180 degrees so we were pointing back up to the line, regained our speed and crossed the line in a pretty good spot -about 2 boats over from the pin, and in the front half of the fleet.

Was this a legal start? I suppose that if a hole hadn't opened I would have been euchered since I was on port tack coming down into the fleet (basic ROW), but I'm really not sure at all if there were other rules I broke by starting this way. FYI, I wouldn't reccoment this start if you are new to racing. It will produce white knuckles.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2008 : 12:44:14

Everyone sees things from their own perspective. You described the events from your own perspective, and I don't see that you violated any rule, but, if you asked the same question of the other sailors involved, they might see it differently. If you interfered with any of them in any way while they had right of way over you, then you probably violated the rules.

If an experienced racer did the maneuvers that you described, I wouldn't be too concerned about it, because I would trust that he knows what he's doing, and he knows when he is obligated to yield to other boats, and he has the boat handling skills to pull it off. But, if I saw a beginner doing it, I would suggest to him that he needs to cool his jets a little bit, because it's dangerous to be doing that when you don't know the rules. You have many years of racing ahead of you. Be patient, drop back a little and watch and learn. Most of the other racers might give you a break if they see you get yourself in trouble, but there's always one or two racers who'll slam the door shut, leaving you nowhere to go.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/09/2008 12:46:12

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 07:20:36

Port Tack Duck Start - There will come a day when you will want to do that intentionally but I'd save that for a few years from now. You didn't break any rules, though you might have pissed off a few old salts. It sounds like things didn't get too hairy and that is probably a good thing. You need a very solid crew that can luff the boat to a near stop, help you tack on a dime or gybe out of a potential cluster on a moments notice. Especially if you get the Slam the Door Shut guys Steve mentions above.

If you find yourself in that situation again, especially in a larger fleet getting yourself clear air in the middle of the line with options to go to either side is usually a safer bet.

Incidentally, you mentioned you had to "get up to the preffered end of the line (pin end)." Does your RC boat always anchor on the port side of the line?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 10:52:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 
Incidentally, you mentioned you had to "get up to the preffered end of the line (pin end)." Does your RC boat always anchor on the port side of the line?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The answer is: I’m not sure. This was our first “Interclub” race. Normally at our home club we have about 8 – 10 boats in a race and we all start in one heat (radio start). This event was between all the clubs on the lake, so there were a load of things that were different. The committee boat was one of those (we usually have a race marker and a start pin at our home club), there was also more boats (close to 20), watching flags for the start instead of listening to a radio countdown, and 3 classes with 2 starts.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 11:54:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...if I saw a beginner doing it, I would suggest to him that he needs to cool his jets a little bit, because it's dangerous to be doing that when you don't know the rules.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Amen. I'll go so far as to say, with no real crew or experience aboard, give the fleet some room on the favored end, pick one of the better boats close to your rating, and then follow and learn from them (watching sail trim and maneuvers). There are some good books that go beyond stating the rules--they explain and illustrate the rules relative to common situations. As Steve and Duane said, there are often at least a few racers who will aggressively use the rules against you, especially if you're screwing up their start. A flag is one thing--a bump or a boom in the rigging is another, especially if you're at fault.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 12:16:43

Yes Dave and Steve - that is basically the message I got after the race. I have no problem with that, just wanted to be sure I hadn't actually done anything wrong.

I think that on the course you have ot be a little balsy and defend your ground, but you also have to be responsible enough not to ruin anyone's day.The boat that we spun around in front of were friends from our home club, and afterwards they told us that they were quite concerned when they saw us coming toward them, but that once we had spun around and were OK they were cheering for us pulling off a tough move.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 14:18:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 
Incidentally, you mentioned you had to "get up to the preffered end of the line (pin end)." Does your RC boat always anchor on the port side of the line?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This event was between all the clubs on the lake, so there were a load of things that were different. The committee boat was one of those
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The reason I asked was that the main committee boat for most races is anchored to the starboard side of the line, even in downwind starts. There are exceptions of course and I just wondered what they might have been in this circumstance.

You might think about taking the Principal Race Officer class US Sailing has, you don't necessarily have to get certified, but it will provide some insight into your starts and the course itself. I learned a ton from that class and from the work I needed to get certified. It was well worth it.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 14:20:32

also - I thought I posted this already, but it must have gotten lost - Dave Perry's Understanding the RRoS is probably the best book at explaining the rules in basic terms. The illustrations are very helpful (and funny) and the book is layed out in a way that allows you to pick it up after a race and go right to the section you need - be it for post race review or for that dreaded protest form.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2008 : 15:09:51

The pin was on the starboard side of the start, with the RC on the port. There was a separate starting pin and race mark, which was also different to me. The other major difference was that our club tends to do an Olympic course (triangle and sausage) whereas this race was a double triangle.

I am attaching an image of our start since the port duck thing sounds close, but not quite like what we did. If I ever have to do this again, I think I’d pull the U-turn earlier so that I’d hit the line with the front few boats rather than trying to negotiate a hole in the front of the pack.

Last night I spoke with our friends in the boat we turned around in front of, and his comment was that he saw nothing wrong with what we did so far as rules go, just some pretty edgy sailing that took big risks.

Our progression is detailed in the (really bad) images below.

1 - on the wrong end of the line

2 - turning into the fleet

3 - spinning around to get to the line

Edited by - Prospector on 06/10/2008 15:11:11

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 09:20:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 [quote]Originally posted by Prospector
 [quote]Originally posted by Champipple
 
You might think about taking the Principal Race Officer class US Sailing has, you don't necessarily have to get certified, but it will provide some insight into your starts and the course itself. I learned a ton from that class and from the work I needed to get certified. It was well worth it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Duane, I'd love to take that course. Is it offered regularly in your area? When is it given? Is it a one day course, or does it last for several sessions? Who can I contact for more info?

Thanks!

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 13:52:31

It is a one day course with a test Steve. Edgewater has it occasionally, as do other yacht clubs.

After succussful completion of the course if you want certification you need to have your club officer and/or the Regional PRO sign off on your on the water hours. These usually include 2 tours of duty each at Mark Boat, Pin boat, scoring/finishing, flags, Timer and Overall. I was lucky enough to have a ton of large events to get my time in, but even if that weren't the case there are a ton of clubs begging for RC volunteers.

This link lists the requirements if you want to do it...
http://www.ussailing.org/racemgt/documents/US_ProgramSummary.pdf

This one is the home page for Race officers

http://www.ussailing.org/racemgt/Race_Officer_Prog/prog_history.asp

It doesn't look like there is anything offered in either of your areas for the short term. Most locations begin to schedule these in the fall. If you get enough backing you could even hold your own.

dw

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 14:08:40

Thanks Duane. I would at least like to take the course, just for the knowledge. If I decide to get certified, I could find plenty of opportunities around here to get the RC experience. I guess what I need to do is keep checking the website to find a convenient place to take the seminar.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2008 : 17:18:56

From your diagram, I see two potential problems, both having to do with ROW. As you approach the first boat head on, if he thinks you are going to hit him and changes course to avoid you, you'll have a very hard time proving you were in the right. Sounds like that is not the case since that is your friend. The other problem is when you come around and have a boat to your leeward. Same deal here; the leeward boat has ROW and if he protests that he had to bear away to avoid being hit, you have a hard time proving otherwise. Generally when you're that close to the start signal, boats are packed in and are getting close to the line; there just isn't much room for a manoeuver like that. If a hole doesn't open up, you're in trouble and if it does, you still risk being protested. I'm not saying it can't be done, I know a few people that can pull it off on a regular basis.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2008 : 09:24:31

Finally got to a computer where I could see the diagrams.

Stardog mentions potentil problems, but in reality if they hail tell them to hold course or just come up and go over early.

I'm not sure why you didn't tack into that hole instead of Gybe? Or why you didn't just come up and port tack the fleet (provided the scale of your drawings is remotely accurate)

Still - you did nothing wrong per the rulebook.

Edited by - on

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