Association Forum - Honda 8 Stall

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Honda 8 Stall

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

mroettersr
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
148 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/22/2008 : 00:16:14

I’m having difficulty with my 1993 Honda 8 outboard. The motor starts and idles well. A new carb was just installed and the engine tuned up including new plugs, fuel line filter and valves adjusted. The problem is that the engine simply quits when put into forward or reverse. If I pull the shift lever slowly up or down, the engine will engage the drive mechanism and run in forward or reverse. As soon as the lever is all the way up or down, the engine quits. This engine has a “neutral switch” and cannot be started in gear. It almost seems the switch is cutting the engine as if it were in start mode even though it is idling in neutral. Logic would indicate the neutral switch is doing its job. My official Honda service manual does not have a complete wiring diagram for the engine so I can’t trace wires to see how this switch works with other components including the CDI. I haven’t started pulling wire to check connections as yet. Has anyone encountered a similar problem or have some advice on dealing with the problem?

Mike Roetter
83 C25 SR/SK

Mike Roetter
'83 C25 #3568 SK/SR
Marblehead on Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 11:32:28

If only we had a "Marine EE" around...

Do you know if your alternator is putting out? I'm thinking that might be how the electronics know the engine is running when you put it in gear.

Edited by - on

mroettersr
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 22:02:21

Dave,
Thanks for the reply. I hadn't thought of the alternator. It should be easy to check the output with a VOM. If nothing else works, I may just disable the neutral switch to see if that corrects the problem. The old 2-cycle Evinrudes, Johnsons, and Mercuries didn't have those switches and could be started in neutral, forward or reverse.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5361 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2008 : 23:28:40

Mike -
I think Dave has a bit of experience with the Honda 8. Seems like a good call on the alternator. I just wondered whether your engine is equipped with the oil pressure indicator that lights up and turns green. If you have one, but it's not lighting up, this could be another indication of no voltage.

According to Honda, you can order the service manual with all the details in it. Not cheap however, but one DIY-repair successfully done would probably cover the cost of the manual, versus sending it in to the shop!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 08:22:57

To take my suspicion further... There could be a solenoid that uses current from the alternator to keep the ignition circuit closed when you shift with the engine running. Could be that solenoid, too. (I'm guessing here--this is not based on any "experience"...

)

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 08:33:01

You might try posting on the Honda/Tohatsu forum at iBoats.com and see if you get any answers.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2008 : 09:49:58

If memory serves me well, I believe Honda's cannot be started when in gear due to a physical lockout mechanism. It sounds like the load created by placing the outboard in gear is more then the engine can handle. That could be a fuel or electrical problem. You say the carb is new but new does not necessarily constitute right. I would take out the idle jet and clean it well. It might have sucked up something that is partially plugging it which prevents the engine from idling under load. I have heard of odd problems related to faulty CDI's so you might concentrate on your electrical system. Harbor Freight sells an inline spark checker you can put on your plug and verify how your plugs are firing. If you hook one up you can verify if the plugs quit firing before the engine dies or vis-a-versa. What settings did you set your valves to?

Edited by - on

mroettersr
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2008 : 00:11:35

Thanks for all the replies. Just a couple comments. I do have a factory service manual for the engine. I ran the continuity checks on the neutral switch and it checked out ok. The oil light works fine. There is no solenoid that I can see physically on the engine or on the electrical wiring diagram in the factory service manual. I checked all the connections leading to the CDI. They are all clean and corrosion free. According to the wiring/electrical diagram, the alternator does not provide current to run the engine but only provides current to charge the house batteries. Again, the motor starts and runs fine at idle and will drive the prop with little effort when the gear shift lever is partially engaged. It quits when fully engaged by what I would describe as an "electrical quit" opposed to reason of load. It would seem the CDI is OK as the motor runs fine at idle and under load. My next step is to bypass the neutral switch to see if it solves the problem. If this works, it will mean the motor can be started in gear as well as neutral.

One additional thought I just had. The motor ran fine at boat launch with not a problem. I had put a new motor mount on the boat and had to disconnect the charging cable running from the motor to the boat electrical panel. I reconnected the cable at the panel a couple weeks after splash. I can't imagine that could cause a problem but it is the only change that occured from the time I launched to my present problem. I will disconnect the cable to see if it makes a difference.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2008 : 08:10:09

You might double-check the continuity on that switch, if something has gotten in it, it might show very high resistance, but not infinite.. Set your VOM to the highest resistance and check the switch in the open position, if you don't see infinite resistance it's passing some current. And, as mentioned by the guys, try disconnecting the lockout switch as a last measure to eliminate it as a problem. There is, of course, the possibility the mechanicals are not working properly. Some think might be stuck to prevent the switch from opening when you shift gears.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2008 : 08:19:33

To me, the secret here is in how that switch prevents ignition when the engine is being started but allows it when the engine is running. Something else is at work there... that's why I was imagining a solenoid.

What would it be, Bruce???

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2008 : 16:54:18

I'm going to venture a guess that there are two switches; one is actuated by the shift lever, this tells when the engine is engaged, the other is somewhere on the starter assembly, probably under the starter gear and is actuated when the gear is forced down into the flywheel. The second switch sends the signal that the starter is active. If both signals are activated at the same time the ignition circuit is deactivated. This makes me wonder if something in your starter is sticking? Is the engine louder than it used to be? It's also possible the second switch is broken/shorted.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5361 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2008 : 21:21:51

Ok - so I looked over the circuit diagram and it appears that you have to have the neutral switch in the Normally closed (NC) position to allow the starter switch to pass current to the "starter magnetic switch", which is some kind of solenoid. If the neutral switch is open, then no current will go through the starter. Simple - it either works or it doesn't, and yours works.
So the starter section does not control engine "run".

But, run has quite a few interlocks however.

The emergency stop switch goes to the CDI, where it "stops the presses" completely. Likewise the Temp and Oil switches go directly to the CDI and set warning lights and shut down the engine. There's also the pulse coil, that appears to perform the function of the "crank position sensor" in an auto engine. This tells the CDI where top dead center is. No electronic ignition engine can run without a CPS.

Since you've already checked the CDI connections, you're good on that count. But I'd check each one of the plugs directly on each of these components as well as the plugs that are part of the wiring harnesses. If you look at the wiring schematic, you'll see several plugs as part of the harnesses. These are usually in places where the wires feed through a wall or enclosure.

But, I don't see any indication of a motor kill function in the neutral switch. All that the neutral switch does is pass a current between the pushbutton and the solenoid.

It could be that some sort of "undocumented circuitry" here may be at fault. Frayed insulation or a short in or near the mechanism for the gear shifter may be the culprit.

It is not unusual for there to be an electrical wire running along-side an actuator or rod that can become chafed over time. An actuator catching on a cable can pull a loose wire out of a connector.

These are nearly impossible to locate, except if you take the engine off the boat and set it on a stand. Remove the outer shell and look for moving parts that connect around the gear shifter.

I doubt that if you removed the neutral switch that you'd notice any difference on this count.

These are my thoughts, for what they're worth.

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2008 : 22:00:09

Mmmmmm? You say Honda, 4 stroke ob. There ya go!

I had very bad experience with Honda four stroke and have since replaced it with a Nissan 2 stroke.

Mine wouldn't start.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2008 : 22:24:40

Not sure if outboards have this feature but the MerCruiser in my SeaRay has a cutout circuit that momentarily kills the ignition just as you put the drive in gear. This helps the drive slide into gear and reduces the stress on the gear box and clutch.

It seems like one time I had a problem with my engine dying when I put it in gear due to a problem with the momentary kill feature but I don't remember what resolved the problem.

Then again it could just be a flare up of my senility!

Edited by - GaryB on 07/01/2008 22:27:14

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 11:01:49

"next step is to bypass the neutral switch to see if it solves the problem"

Logical enough.

Edited by - on

Stardog
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 21:24:05

This might be really obvious advice, but you might email or call Honda Marine technical support, I'm betting they can tell you almost immediately the potential causes of the problem and how to troubleshoot.

Edited by - on

mroettersr
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 22:48:29

I worked on the motor this morning and ended up bypassing the neutral switch all together. This was easy as one wire going to the switch had a male connector while the other a female. I just plugged them together. The motor started fine, went into gear fine and ran continuously without missing a beat while in gear. In the wiring diagrams, the CDI is kind of a black box. The other circuits are clearly defined but the CDI is simply a box that is labeled CDI. I believe the neutral switch is functioning ok based on continuity checks. I did notice that the butterfly position is slightly out of adjustment from the alignment mark for the switch. Unfortunately, I didn't have the proper wrench to back off the set screw and re-set it. Next time I get to the boat, I will do this and reconnect the switch. The motor is a manual start. I agree with Dave that there must be a secret that prevents the motor from starting when the neutral switch is open. My guess is a diode possibly located in the CDI as all these various switches and circuits ultimately go into that black box. For now the motor runs fine and should get me though the season. If the problem isn't resolved with the setting of the butterfly in the switch, I will take "stardog's" advice and try to contact Honda.

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3072 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 10:41:14

"secret that prevents the motor from starting when the neutral switch is open"

My guess. If the ignition module sees appropriate alternator voltage it will let the engine run with the neutral switch open. If there is not enough alternator voltage it assumes 'starting' and kills the spark.

Further WAG (without looking at the linkage)... adjusting the switch will fix the problem.

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.