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Another Scary Story...

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/02/2008 : 16:53:45

[url="http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=412a226a-e11e-4b64-8093-55380cf47597"]USCG meets Block Island Ferry.[/url]

...or, why I have radar. Didn't they?

Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
Past member and DPO of C-25 #5032
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing) and posting as "Stinkpotter".

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/02/2008 16:54:54

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 17:34:36

There has been a lot of fog recently in these here parts. I still can't figure out why the ferry didn't hail the large blob on his radar too. This oughta be interesting. Someone is gonna get their backside whipped.

sten

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 18:57:23

The Morro Bay's captain is toast, even if it's the ferry captain's fault. On the slight chance he manages to stay in the USCG, he'll never-ever command a ship again. Even if he's exonerated he'll drive a desk for the rest of his (short lived) career.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 21:59:54

Not just radar... I assume there was AIS identifying the ships and reporting their course and speed... And the Coast Guard?!?!

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 22:10:09

Again, who was the stand-on vessel? Does the ferry prevail over a federal vessel? I don't think so. The fact of the matter is that while the Coast Guard vessel should have taken evasive manuevers themselves, I believe the Coasties outrank a commercial vessel. They both should have seen each other and not played chicken. I believe the ferry Captain should walk the plank as well. He had a lot of innocents - I believe that is what we call them these days - aboard. He should have reduced speed, hailed, sounded horns, and taken evasive action himself. File under, two wrongs never make a right!

sten

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 22:17:22

Ok boys, lets not jump to conclusions and point fingers. There has got to be a logical explanation. Maybe everyone ate some of those bad tomatoes and got sick. Or terrorists took over both boats. Lets wait and see.

Steve a

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 22:43:50

Conspiracy theory - The French have infiltrated the Coast Guard and maybe the Coasties were testing out their new BendyToy ship, which as we all know is going to make it prone to collision... Oh maybe that's just me...

sten

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2008 : 22:51:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Does the ferry prevail over a federal vessel? I don't think so. The fact of the matter is that while the Coast Guard vessel should have taken evasive manuevers themselves, I believe the Coasties outrank a commercial vessel.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Really? I know that both security zones and the "Rule of Tonnage" apply to warships, and now to commercial ships, but I haven't heard of an official ranking. On the other hand, when subs enter and leave the Groton Sub Base near me, everybody needs to run for cover! Don't even think about going in that direction to see what it looks like--just look it up on the Web.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/02/2008 22:53:39

redviking
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USA
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Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 13:20:19

Rock, paper scissors... I dunno. all I know is that if I was captain of the ferry and saw a 140 foot Coastie sitting there - I would take evasive action... I would not expect THEM to move! Any more news?

sten

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 13:28:31

Reminds me of the old story of the obstinate aircraft carrier Captain that wouldn't alter course for the other guy on the radio in the fog. At least until the other guy said: "you might be a US Navy aircraft carrier, but I'm a lighthouse, your choice!"

I'm also reminded of my former brother-in-law that was a senior radar operator on a then-new Navy Hydrofoil (20+ years ago) that ran aground while up on its planes somewhere I don't recall. Absolutely true story: He called his mother in the middle of the night to let her know HE WASN'T ON THE RADAR when it happened. Strong Mom!

Edited by - John Russell on 07/03/2008 13:31:05

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 13:37:20

Yep, agree with David! the CG cutter's captain has probably commanded his last ship and shortened his career. Reminds me of the Ballistic Missile Sub (SSBN) that ran aground in the early 90's entering San Francisco Bay. The Capt's career didn't last past his report of the incident. Or the CG Cutter that ran aground and sank off the northern tip of the Keweenaw Peninsula in northern Michigan. She no-longer works for the Coast Gaurd either.

The whole story may not yet be out, but the safety of the ship belongs to the skipper. The service is not tolerant of mistakes like this no matter who is found at fault.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 13:56:15

[url="http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=ed66b134-dbf3-4364-af0a-696894a8e689"]Follow-up story[/url]...

Note that the cutter hit the port bow, as I would expect given the directions of both, and it was after the ferry tried sound signals and then tried to stop. Fog reports vary in the story, but friends of mine were headed into Newport then and reported near-zero visibility. It must have been that, but nonetheless--both ships should look like spotlights on radar screens. The port side is the "red light side"--the ferry was the stand-on vessel--I don't think the CG is claiming otherwise. Sounds bleak for that captain.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 14:16:53

Wow, brand new command and only in the first half of a career.

Dave, you said the cutter hit the port bow. I think it's significant to point out that the video shows the damage to the Coasties was abaft the beam. Who hit whom? It will be interesting to see the speed logs of both vessels. My personal bias is that ferry captains are often more worried about schedules than right of way. Was this "Captain" blasting his horn the same way they do in Rome? Simply to let you know they're about to drive in front of you. Or, did he truly slow to speed sufficient to maintain navigation and try to feel his way through.

In any event, the Lieutenant in command of the CG vessel may be able to save his career since he may be able to adequately demonstrate his vessel was acting appropriately given the conditions.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 15:06:15

Some time back some of my Power Squadron friends -- each Navy vets -- passed along a story that took place in the Viet Nam era. The story was about a US warship that stood it's ground with a smaller commercial vessel (that was a spy ship of some sort) The long and the short was that in International waters technically the "rules of the road" apply to military, commercial and pleasure vessels regardless of tonnage. That being said, the Coasties appear to have screwed up royally here and SHOULD be using all the technology they can employ to insure safe passage for themselves as well as all others!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2008 : 16:12:57

John--I don't know what video you're referencing, but all stories I've seen (including [url="http://www.military.com/news/article/coast-guard-news/coast-guard-cutter-and-ferry-collide.html?col=1186032366581"]Military.com[/url]) say there was no significant damage to the cutter, as you could expect if its bow rammed the other ship.

I believe the rules say that if either ship hears the other's fog signal forward of the beam, he must stop or slow to bare steerage speed, sound his own signal, and attempt to make radio contact. "Stand-on" and "give-way" rules do not apply until both ships can see each other. Radar might have caused the ferry skipper to make an assumption that turned out to be false--that the CG skipper had him on radar. The mystery at this point seems to be what both captains saw on their screens. Also, were there any Securite calls? As light as the damage was, they didn't hit with much speed--was that because they had slowed as required, or that they were both hard-astern trying to do panic stops?

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/04/2008 : 08:57:35

The Day has it wrong. Providence Journal reports "The 140-foot Morro Bay, based in New London, is an ice-breaking tug. It was incorrectly described at first by the Coast Guard as a buoy tender.

A cause for the collision, which dented the bow of the ferry Block Island and left a gash on the rear starboard railing of the Morro Bay, has not yet been determined, the Coast Guard said."

That means that the ferry t-boned him aft of the middle. So if you hit a Coast Guard vessel, will the ferry Captain also be held responsible? Some of those guys are brutal.

sten

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2008 : 14:41:58

Sad irony... <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When it collided with a Block Island ferry in thick fog Wednesday, the Coast Guard vessel Morro Bay was returning to New London from a change of command ceremony in Newport.

Lt. Douglas Wyatt was installed as the new commander in a ceremony Tuesday, the Coast Guard said in a Wednesday night statement.

Wyatt, who enlisted in the Coast Guard in 1978, had previously been the officer in charge of the 65-foot ice-breaking tug Coast Guard cutter Hawser.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Regardless of whose bow hit whose rail, I think both captains have a problem... There's no "right of way" when there's no visibility. Each was required to make the other aware, be aware of the other, virtually stop if necessary, and then work it out between them.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2008 : 17:48:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 John--I don't know what video you're referencing, but all stories I've seen (including [url="http://www.military.com/news/article/coast-guard-news/coast-guard-cutter-and-ferry-collide.html?col=1186032366581"]Military.com[/url]) say there was no significant damage to the cutter, as you could expect if its bow rammed the other ship.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The video on this page, Dave. It clearly shows damage abaft the beam on this ship.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 [url="http://www.theday.com/re.aspx?re=ed66b134-dbf3-4364-af0a-696894a8e689"]Follow-up story[/url]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I believe the rules say that if either ship hears the other's fog signal forward of the beam, he must stop or slow to bare steerage speed, sound his own signal, and attempt to make radio contact. "Stand-on" and "give-way" rules do not apply until both ships can see each other. Radar might have caused the ferry skipper to make an assumption that turned out to be false--that the CG skipper had him on radar. The mystery at this point seems to be what both captains saw on their screens. Also, were there any Securite calls? As light as the damage was, they didn't hit with much speed--was that because they had slowed as required, or that they were both hard-astern trying to do panic stops?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's exactly why I think the speed logs (if such a thing exists) will prove interesting here. My gut feeling is that the ferry mis-judged the speed of the Cutter and he was starting to re-accelerate thinking he would pass astern but didn't.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/04/2008 : 17:54:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
Wyatt, who enlisted in the Coast Guard in 1978, had previously been the officer in charge of the 65-foot ice-breaking tug Coast Guard cutter Hawser.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Gotta be a typo. Can't imagine a guy with 30 years service and still only a Lieutenant. I'd bet it should read 1998 It literally takes an act of Congress to allow active service beyond the 30 year mark. That's why you only see 4-stars with 30+ years.

Edited by - John Russell on 07/04/2008 17:55:17

Tom Potter
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USA
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Response Posted - 07/04/2008 : 18:53:58

John,
Key word there is "enlisted", (officers are commissioned). He could very well been a Limited Duty Officer (LDO). LDO's are enlisted members that become officers. They usually have many years in service before becoming LDO. I cant recall if LDO's can have a command, I don't think so in the Navy but maybe in the CG.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/04/2008 : 19:37:54

Even at that, I think there's still a limit of 30 years service without some kind of waiver. When I was on AD in the Air Force, we tried hard to get an O-6 (Colonel)physician waivered and only succeeded for one year. I guess the point is moot since the consensus is that his career is over anyway. If he has 30 years, he'll be able to retire at the grade of O-3 with 30 years service (75% of base pay for life plus health care insurance at ridiculously low rates.)

I still think it's a typo.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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Response Posted - 07/04/2008 : 19:48:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If he has 30 years, he'll be able to retire at the grade of O-3 with 30 years service (75% of base pay for life plus health care insurance at ridiculously low rates.) <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dang! Perhaps I was in the wrong Navy!

Paul

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/05/2008 : 11:42:51

If the USCG captain did indeed enlist in 1978, he almost had to have been enlisted for nearly close to the entire 30 years before he was picked up to be an officer. My dad was an LDO, made it to Corpsman 1st class before he was sent to OCS (Officer Candidate School), and then to "knife & fork" school where they teach you to be a 'gentleman'. For my father, that was about 10 years or so into his career (before my time), and he retired after 26 years as a LCDR in the Medical Service Corps.

Since the captain was "an officer of the line" (could hold bridge rank and take control of the ship, indicated by a star on the sleeve of their dress uniform, my father as an LDO could not, except in dire emergency, he had a caduceus on his sleeve), he is directly responsible for the fate of his ship & crew, no matter who's found at fault eventually. He'll never "save" his career, his career went out the door the second the two vessels touched each other. The best he can hope for is an inquisition that finds him not negligent in his duties which will allow him to retire with rank attained.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 07/05/2008 : 11:54:20

Another caveat. He has to have 10 years of "commissioned service" to retire as an officer. Otherwise, he will retire at the highest enlisted rank achieved. The hit to the retirement check is roughly 50%. One of the many unfair disparities between "gentlemen" and we lowly enlisted types.

Still think it's a typo.

Edited by - John Russell on 07/05/2008 11:54:42

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