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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Achilles rudder

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/21/2008 : 10:04:42

So as to not hijack the existing thread about Trasnpac into a discussion on C25 rudders...I start this topic...

Just how unseaworthy are the C25 rudder (even the balanced model)and attachment points? We all seem to be doing OK w/ conditions up to and including coastal cruising...CD is now offering a 'blue water' rudder...at almost $900...it's longer and 'stronger' although they seem to employ the same design for connection to the stern.

Jerry

Edited by - jerlim on 07/21/2008 10:05:03

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 10:58:49

My guess on that would be that since the 'blue water' rudder is longer it gets a better bite in a swell. Adding length would necessitate beefing it up. When it gets real nasty the Cat-25 is sometimes hard to control because the rudder is too far out of the water at times, unlike some boats our size with the rudder below the water line under the stern.

Edited by - PZell on 07/21/2008 10:59:31

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 11:59:32

The hdpe rudder that CD offers is advertised as "blue water", but I'm a little skeptical of a company (IdaSailor) that advertises their rudders as "blue water" yet they don't make any rudders for actual blue water boats.

This outfit makes traditional rudders, including one for the C25.

[url="http://newrudders.com/"]NewRudders[/url]

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 13:08:05

I read (here?) a report of one HDPE rudder snapping cleanly in half. There might be a clue in the way King Starboard warns against using their material (HDPE) for structural applications. It's strong up to the point where it suddenly goes POP. Most newer "big boat" rudders have a stainless steel grid inside.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 14:09:45

Posted by Craig Vitt...

I purchased a C250 WK (#521) over a year ago, and when purchased, it had an IDA balanced rudder...A short time ago, while sailing off the N. California coast, in moderate conditions (20kt wind, 6' swell w/ 2' wind waves), with the main reefed and a 110 jib, I rounded up in a puff, and my IDA rudder broke in half...

Posted by Gary Bruner...

"I bought the IdaSailor rudder last summer, too, after my original one snapped off. I thought I was happy with it last fall and early spring when conditions were VERY light. However, with bigger breeze this spring, and the fact that I race and carry more sail than if I was cruising, I found that the IdaSailor did not work well for me.

I kept rounding up both downwind under spinnaker and upwind with the 135 and full main in about 20 knots of breeze. I sold the IdaSailor on this site this spring, with the caveat that I felt it was best in light conditions or for those who reef or shorten sail early."

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Stardog
Captain

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USA
319 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2008 : 18:05:32

I still have my original rudder and I've been thinking a lot about replacing it. It's starting to show the signs of age; it looks okay below the water line, but above the seam between the two halves is beginning to spread. I would like to have a balanced rudder, but I don't want one made of a single piece of milled plastic. The fact is that a balance rudder does not eliminate stress loads, it merely transfers them to hull in a way that reduces the amount of force felt at the helm. A good rudder should be able to take the full force caused by a broach, whether it is balanced or otherwise. Laminate rudders are very strong and I have a lot of faith in them.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 07:35:18

I've talked about it in a couple other threads recently but the only thing I have a problem with is the Gudgeons and Pintles. I'm pretty sure I have the beefed up version of these but still feel they're inadequate. Mine have never failed but were bent a bit this spring when I pulled the boat for paint.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 08:39:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stardog
 ...A good rudder should be able to take the full force caused by a broach...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The worst punnishment for a rudder and its attachments is generally the large and sudden sideways forces when the boat is heeled and pitching fore-and-aft through big chop. That's when something breaks. Being on the transom amplifies the motion, and therefore the force. IDA's "blue water" rudder, with its greater depth (leverage), will further increase the forces on the pintles and gudgeons as well as on itself.

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jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 10:05:59

Dave - that certainly provides a clarification of the dynamics...gives one a little pause about what conditions can become a threat...thanks!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2008 : 10:19:53

Jerry... All that said, Passage's foam-cored, fiberglass balanced rudder, and the wood-cored original, both went through some serious Long Island Sound chop, including green water over the bow and cabintop into the cockpit once, with no failures to either rudder. Like many, I replaced the original because of splitting on the seam, caused by swelled wood in the head. The new one was like power steering.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/22/2008 10:21:20

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.