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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Symmetrical Spinnaker size?

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/28/2008 : 06:28:21

What size symmetrical spinnaker should I consider for a C250?

Luff, Leach, Foot.

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/28/2008 06:29:06

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2008 : 13:00:13

Would this work? It's originaly intended for a C25. Note this is an Asymmetrical and I need a Symmetrical for downwind performance. But still I was wondering if the same measurements apply?
[url="http://www.thesailstore.com/catalina-asymmetrical-spinnaker-p-82.html"]LINK[/url]

From the Catalina25/250 National Association Constitution & Bylaws looks like the Luff has to be below 29' 3 1/2":
e. Spinnakers
(1) Luff - The length of the luffs shall be taken as the distance between the
highest point of the sail and the foot measured around the edge of the luff. The
dimension shall not exceed: Tall Rig - 31' 1"; Standard Rig - 29' 3 1/2".
(2) Girth - The maximum shall be measured across the widest point of the sail
between points equidistant from the head. The dimension shall not exceed 18' 10
3/4".

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/28/2008 13:13:36

Second Wind53
1st Mate

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Canada
45 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2008 : 14:32:41

Steve,

You can by registering into the FX website get a quote for a Cat250.
I looked at them before getting one made local "Quantum" for about that same price with no shipping and guaranteed to fit. It was around the boat show here so Febuary but the locals can compete.

I race regularly on a 33 ft race boat with symetric spinnakers and they are a fair amount of work to sail well. We race with eight crew on board.
Singlehanding or even double hanging can be done but jibes (wind goes through the stern) would be pretty wild. Spinnakers can wrap and the boat can broach (spinnaker and main push boat over on it's side until pressure released).

The asymetric spinnakers are the way to go with the 250 IMHO.

I will see if I can post a picture of it when I get home from work.

Peter

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2008 : 16:49:59

Very interesting Peter and thanks for the info. With the Asym, don't you have to have a bow extention (pole) or something? Do you think I should get the same relative speed downwind?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/28/2008 23:35:28

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2008 : 17:47:26

Look at National [url="http://nationalsail.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=15"]Sail's Sym & Assym offers [/url] You'll have to scroll down a bit. They list a C25 but, if my experience with purchasing a Genoa from them holds, they'll have one for a C250.

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2008 : 18:31:01

steve did you get your pole set up yet ?

Im working on mine , thats a project in itself

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2008 : 23:46:25

No Sean, I'm still trying to figure all of this out. What I really need is better downwind performance. At my sail club most if not all have spinnakers. At the windward start I keep up with the pack but as soon as they round the first buoy and head straight downwind I wave to them and sail by myself. During last Wednesday's race once the spinnakers were leaving us behind my 13 year old son asked me why we weren't racing anymore. I answered that we are still racing but then looked at the pack going farther and farther and understood that he was right. It no fun racing "by yourself". I too like the exhilaration of the start heading upwind in relatively close quarters. But I admit that this exhiliration dims down quite a bit once the first buoy is rounded.

We've been having lots of light air often during the races this summer. I wasn't doing very well with my small 110% jib and was easily passed by the others flying Mylar 150%. So I wonder what to buy now:

A) Symetrical Spin for greater downwind perfomance, then the year after that maybe buy a new 130% or 150% jib.

B) Asymetrical Spin that could be used as well as for downwind and light air beam reaches. Just use my 110% for upwind.

I'm really looking for advice on speeding this sucker up. Mostly for upwind and straight downwind racing.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/28/2008 23:53:16

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2008 : 09:19:47

Im liking the symmetrical sail , to sail straight down wind ,or up to a beam reach .
I dont have the sail yet so Ive been using my drifter sail to practice .

first you need a pole forspar will make a custom size pole when you order .
i have the 2" pole 9.6 long

then you need a track on the mast , Im storeing the pole on the mast .
so I have a 9.5 ' track .
the 1 1/4 " track has all the spinnaker cars ,
but the mast is a little thin for the larger mounting scews .

so I used the 1" track with 1/4 " mounts
and going to make a car .

then you need a inner halyard to hold up the pole .
a outer halyard for the sail .
plus a tack line .

I dont race but its alot of fun when its set up .
I would definitely get a sock .

Im almost done , then I was going to call north sails , they come out and measure up a sail .

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2008 : 09:23:59

Edited by - SEAN on 09/03/2008 17:41:40

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2008 : 09:56:17

Hmmm, sounds like I got quite a project on my hands...again. I like the red sail jib. Was thinking of going solid red on my spinnaker.

Edited by - on

Second Wind53
1st Mate

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Canada
45 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2008 : 14:00:08

There really is a lot of hardware to get and install for a symetric spin but the asymetric will go fairly deep downwind but not dead down wind (ddw). You just attach to near the forestay with a tack line. Jibing just involves pulling the sail around the front. Jibing a symetric sail has a crew member in front of the mast taking the pole off the mast attaching to the new guy and replacing the other end of the pole on the mast again while you drive and flip the main over.

The asymetric is much easier to control and jibe but it's your decision.
I had our boat going 5.5 nts a week ago with our asymetric chute which is fun but busy since I was doing everything myself.

Peter

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2008 : 14:30:11

I love the red , i like the neon green too

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2008 : 19:19:11

Sounds like I should get an Asym then. I'm not really liking all the hardware requirements for flying a Sym. I don't really need to go extactly straight downwind either. Often the wind changes slightly anyways so most of the time I would probably end up going straight to target. How many degrees to you have to keep off the wind with an Asym?

I stumbled on an interestig article: The [url="http://www.sailingworld.com/from-the-experts/technique/the-commandments-of-asym-trim-37295.html"]Commandments of Asym Trim[/url]

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/29/2008 19:25:42

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2008 : 19:32:51

Found my answer:

<b>Apparent-wind strength Apparent-wind direction </b>
5 knots 55-155 degrees
10 knots 60-155 degrees
15 knots 85-155 degrees
20 knots 120-155 degrees

I got this off a REALLY NICE article on [url="http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/spinnaker/spinnaker.htm"]Cruising with an
Asymmetrical Spinnaker.[/url]

So if 180 degrees is straight downwind I can go at 180-155= 25 off the wind. I did some calculations and based on 1000 feet in between buoys directly downwind from each other I would need 1140 feet at 30 degrees by tacking once. That's about 12% longer. 5 knots is 8.4 ft/s. Not considering the time loss for the 1 tack an Sym would need 1:59 minutes and an Asym would need 2:16 minutes, a 17 second loss. But factoring in that tacking will take the boat from 5 knots to about 3 for 15 seconds if done right that is 2:22 minutes a 23 second difference.

Using the above calculation it is now easy to multiply the time loss by the number of 1000 foot segments you need to cover. I estimate we do about 4000 feet downwind during a typical round twice race. That would put me at a 1:32 minutes disadvantage over a Symmetrical Spinnaker.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/29/2008 20:09:18

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2008 : 19:41:26

as you go from a reach to further down wind , the the front of th boat gets blocked by the main .
to pole something out you pick up alot more wind .

id like to have both styles

Edited by - on

Seadog
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2008 : 14:02:05

Steve,

There are some racing tactics that your equation does not address. You never go directly downwind unless your in heavy air > 15 knots or are going wing and wing. Spinnakers in heavy air require skill, stamina, and brute strength. Crusing boats will tend to go wing and wing at this point. It is not fun for the crew and does not attract positive attention when you broach, wipe out, spin out etc. If you are competive racing on light displacment boats and not a Catalina this will provide plenty of laughs and jokes at your expense during the after race party

.

<b>Symeterical Spin</b>
Sailing deep or heating up are the terms used to describe how far off the wind you are sailing. In light air 3 to 10 knots you will be sailing nearly 40 degrees from dead down wind at 140. In medium 10 to 15 knots air you can sail deeper say 145 to 165. In heavy air > 15 knots you can go straight down wind.

You have a few decisions to make at the mark, what was the favored side of the course on the upwind leg. Every course has a side with less current, more wind pressure, favored puffs, or less obstructions added together equate to the least amount of tacks to reach the mark. Going downwind it will be the opposite tack (same side as going up wind). This tack my take you away from the mark, but the puffs will allow you to sail deeper and regain distance. So you have to decide how long to stay on the favored tack before gybing to be closer to the rum line.

You will continue to heat up (gain speed) and then sail deeper (fall down) to gain distance the whole length of the downwind leg. Move your crew as far aft as possible and balance the boat to be flat.

Other tips:

Do not clip the end of pole to the clew ring. The sheets run throught the jaws.

when in doubt let her out, pole should be at at right angle to the mast.

If your start to broach release the boom vang. Then quickly put tension back on (the helmsperson will over correct if you don't).

The driver/helmsperson looks down the course not up at the spinnaker (this is my personel favorite) hard to hold a steady course when looking at the sky.

The spin trimmer and person working the after guy sheet should move in unison, as the trimmer sheets in the after guy is eased out then reversed to let out.

Terms:

Pole - Carbon or alummunion extrusion.

Sheet - Spinnaker control. Should be lead aft to a primary winch or cabin top winch through a turn block to achieve proper upward angle to drum.

Fore Guy - keeps the pole from bouncing up and down. Works with the topping lift to raise and lower the pole, attaches to bottom of bridle of pole. Should be led through a block attached to the foredeck back to spinlocks in the cockpit.

Topping lift - raises the pole. Attaches to top briddle of pole Seperate from the main topping lift. Should be lead up the mast to a block down to the base of mase through a block to a spinloc in the cockpit.

After Guy - moves the pole forward and back. Small boats the after guy is the lazy spinnsheet. Should be lead aft to a primary winch or cabin top winch through a turn block to achieve proper upward angle to drum.

Most importantly have fun

Ryan

Edited by - on

frogger
Navigator

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USA
184 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2008 : 15:24:14

Bought asym from Doyle. Love it. Red, White & Blue.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2008 : 17:02:04

Thanks for taking the time to write this Ryan. This year was 80% light air and 20% medium air. Sorry for being so new at this, I thought an Sym spinnaker would be flown always straight downwind. But now that you mention it I do see the other guys go offwind with them.

Using the figures I got off that web site above I can factor in your Sym numbers in there.

Apparent-wind strength Apparent-wind direction
5 knots 55-155 degrees Sym:140
10 knots 60-155 degrees Sym:140
15 knots 85-155 degrees Sym:145-165
20 knots 120-155 degrees Sym:145-165

Maybe a 15 degree difference. That brings me to probably half of my estimated figures so only a 45 second difference. To me what is attractive of the Asym is the safety and it seems much easier to handle. Maybe a better choice for myself and my 13-14 year old who are new to the sport. Because we would be faster as setting up an Asym (over a Sym) maybe we would catch up that 45 second difference. We are now going wing on wing using a whisker pole to extend the jib. I noticed that I'm kinda keeping up with the spinnaker guys in 10+ knots this way. Spins kinda scare me because we have numerous wind angle shifts which could make me look stupid.

So bottom line is what would you recommend in my case? Do some amateur racers prefer using an Asym over a Sym?

Is is possible to use a whisker pole with an Asym to go wing on wing?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 08/31/2008 17:03:20

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