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Speeding up a C250

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/04/2008 : 10:12:24

In your opinion what would be the topmost modifications to speeding up a C250 for racing purposes(not considering the skipper)? This starting from a stock C250. I'm thinking:

1. Spinnaker for downwind
2. Better sails (jib mostly)

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 10:41:42

1. Strip off old bottom paint.
2. Apply a good racing bottom paint.

New sails would be wasted if the boat's bottom is causing drag, preventing it from slipping easily through the water.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 11:27:49

In areas where the waters create significant bottom fouling, having the boat pressure washed during the main season will help greatly to increase boat speed. A marina near me charges $75 for raising and lowering the boat including the pressure wash, regardless of sailboat size. They have held firm on this cost for the past 3 years.

If your sails are blown out and generally the stock sails will be proportionately after several years or more, there will be some improvement mainly in heading up into the wind by replacing the sail(s). If going with Dacron sails again, be aware that there are different grades of it. Many of the sails sold off the shelf are not of the Dacron that is less prone to stretching. Racing sails out of high-tech fibers will stretch less initially compared to dacron but they will cost plenty and overall sail life is supposedly less compared to a Dacron sail that will hold up structurally for many, many more years. There are past Forum discussions including my comments on the various grades of Dacron matl - So check past postings if interested in replacing sails. (Mack Sails website is a great reference to get the basics.)

I do not have a spinnaker but I would think that would increase speed as well and adds to your sail inventory.

A comment regarding multi-year bottom paint versus a single year hard racing bottom paint. If your boat comes out of the water each year, then the hard racing paints would be best. But for me, it is of extreme cost for me to go this route. I keep my boat in year-round. There are no close marinas that I can take boat out and leave it on stands except for one and that is only for a week drydocked, otherwise, the costs go up. They have a waiting list for dry dock storage longer than there wait list for a slip. Inorder to do bottom painting, the boat goes into their maintenance yard. They then charge for the raising and lowering and pressure washing, travel lift to and from the mtn yard and then $200/week in the mtn yard whether they paint it or not. I had my boat painted 2 years ago by them and the total cost was over $1000. So, I use a multi-year paint and get the bottom pressure washed annually for $75 as an alternative to yearly painting. I believe some sailboaters that are into racing will get their boats pressure washed more frequently. I just had my boat bottom pressure washed and I would say that for $75 it increases speed by about 1/2 knot or so.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 12:27:35

I put on new VC-17 on the boat in the spring. I was doing quite well in the beginning of the season and slowly degraded from there. I do not seem to have much algae growth but still on the whole surface it does have an effect. I wouldn't be suprised to gain that 1/2 knot which is pretty much what I'm missing right now. For next summer I'll make sure to power wash the bottom at about 3 times a season. I have a trailer and a gas power washer with access to a water hose (this is a private marina, they will let me do it). Will probably help me point better too, as this has also degraded.

My sails are 9 years old, and I know I'm due for new ones. I saild MUCH more this season and maybe they got stretch over time.

Last night I had one of the best racers skipper my boat just to test if I was the culprit. I learned alot. Although he did do slightly better than I usualy do we still came in second last. Early in the season my score was right in the middle of the pack, now I'm second last consistently.

In conclusion:

1. Wash the boat bottom more often (I'm in fresh water. Never washed it this season)
2. Change both sails (get a 130-140% jib while I'm at it, high quality Dacron or Mylar).
3. Buy a Sym spinnaker.
4. Make sure the rigging is tunned right. (check last night as I was able to while someone else was on the helm. My mast rake looks perfect with upper and lower shrouds set just right.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 09/04/2008 12:29:13

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 16:01:52

Steve,
The old guy across from my old slip raced his Thunderbird all the time. Prior to each race he would basically [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=OgL&pwst=1&defl=en&q=define:Careen&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title"]careen [/url]his boat by using a 6-part block & tackle to pull his masthead down as far as he could, then brush the hull to clean it. I watched him do this a number of times and it took him about 20 minutes total. I was always impressed with how often he did it and how easy he made it look. If I remember correctly, he was 73 years old. I offered to help him several times, but he would politely refuse & go about his business. He said that he felt it was good for half a knot of extra speed during his races.

If you're really serious about racing, look into better sails than the stock Catalina ones. They're good for cruising, but if you want to win, you need good sails. Do you use hank on sails or a furler? Hank on sails are generally considered faster than furled sails because they have better shape. The J-92 "Silverheels" I used to race on had all Kevlar sails & went like hell. It had a dual foil so you could raise one jib while dousing the other, as well as an asymmetrical spinnaker on the retractable bow sprit. I don't know if foils are allowed for our boats in races, but it makes the luff a near razor edge compared to hanks or furlers. Silverheel's owner spared no expense when it came to racing gear, not so much on nav gear, but that's another story. It was a fast, fun boat to race on, and I notice that it's still winning races. He did the same for his Swan 46 which isn't exactly a race boat, but it was pretty fast too.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 16:51:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 Last night I had one of the best racers skipper my boat just to test if I was the culprit. I learned alot. Although he did do slightly better than I usualy do we still came in second last. Early in the season my score was right in the middle of the pack, now I'm second last consistently.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's usually very helpful, but even a good racer might not sail a C250 very well until he gains experience with it. A racer might be inclined to heel the boat more, and the C250 doesn't like to heel. It's much faster when sailed more upright.

It might be helpful if you ask a racer to crew for you while you skipper the boat. The question isn't whether he can sail your boat well, but whether you're sailing it with a reasonable degree of skill. He can watch you and see if you're losing time and speed due to poor helmsmanship, or lack of concentration, or if your tactics can be improved. He can see if you're getting good starts with clear air, and if you're finding the best winds around the course, and if you're using them as effectively as possible.

If you did well early in the season, and aren't doing well now, I'll bet you haven't been wiping down your boat's bottom before each race, and that the other racers are doing so. The skills that you demonstrated at the beginning of the season, when you were scoring higher, didn't degrade. The boat has probably lost speed due to a slight, gradual fouling of the bottom. A foul bottom reduces the boat's potential speed and pointing ability, and that reduces the speed of the apparent wind, and that reduces the ability of the sails to generate power, and that means that, in effect, you're trying to race with a smaller "engine" than the other racers.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/04/2008 16:52:40

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 19:24:16

That makess a lot of sense. I never wiped the bottom and the speed loss degredation was very gradual as the season passed. I actually make much less mistakes now but dropping behind and I know that in fact I'm a better sailor now. I'm thinking of bringing my trailer this weekend to take the boat out and brush it down. I'll also take the opportunity to view my keel as I have been hearing a stable vibration (like a small electric engine) when going over 5.5 knots. I would imagine that it doesn't take much algea growth to slow it down. It must negate the VC-17 properties. I can certainly see how algea growth can grab on to the water.

Going downwind wing on wing, amazingly I don't loose that much distance with the spinnaker guys. In the beginning of the season I used to cut them off pretty good due to my higher pointing abilities. Now it's a different story. I'm now thinking of going with "new" Mylar Mail and Jib. Well not really new as they are quite expensive. Was wondering if you guys had links to a good honest sail loft that might sell these? I wonder how far I can go with lets say a $1000 budget.

Can you also tell me what size of main and jib I need? I the following measurements on my sails:

Jib:
I: 330" or 27.5'
J: 99' or 8.25'
LP: 106 or 8.8'

Main:
P: 283' or 25.6'
E: 128' or 10.6'
MGM: 82' or 6.8'
MGU: 44
HB: 4

How does this translate to Foot and Luff which most sailmakers use?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 09/04/2008 20:37:03

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 22:54:40

Chasing the speed increase and better pointing with new high tech sails is going to cost mucho. I bought a Quantum main and 150 furling Genoa made out of "High Aspect" Challenge Dacron with Quantum taking the measurements off the boat and these are mainly cruising sails.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2008 : 23:29:54

Steve,
If I were you, I'd scrub the bottom & see what happens before I'd drop $1k on a new sail. I'd be willing to bet you'll see a significant increase in speed after getting the bottom clean again. My boat's only been in the water about a month, and I can already see growth on my hull. Instead of going through the pain to pull your boat up onto the trailer, you might try the method my slip neighbor used, a really long 6 part fall to pull your mast down so you can get to your hull. On a water ballast securely tied in it's slip, I'd imagine you can blow your ballast to make it easier to pull the boat over, just make sure to re-ballast before going back out. Paul (Britinusa) uses a small 12v air pump to blow his ballast on the ramp, not sure how long it takes to do so.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 03:29:27

David, I will try that. I have a small 12v blower made by Coleman but it doesn't push much pressure. I guess I should be using the main halyard to pull the boat down?

We've been having LOTS of light air at the Wednesday races. I was thinking of a good 135% as recommended here. Would also be much better downwind with the greater sail area. The experienced racer I talked about above advised me that a larger jib/genoa would help me point better.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 09/05/2008 04:02:26

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 05:07:35

Anybody know how much if anything noticeable shifting your weight a bit farther forward rather than single-handed sailing sitting near the stern has on speed ?

Also, what is the proper way to tune the boom vang for max advantage in say 5 mph vs 10 or 15 mph wind when going downwind ?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 10:22:10

Jim (the older racer in my first post) used a block & tackle he hoisted to the top of his mast with his halyard. I calculated that for our boats, you'd need roughly 300' of line if your pull was at 45 degrees & you use a 6-part fall. Bear in mind that I have a tall rig so I calculated for a 35' mast, I think a regular rig is 32? The hypotenuse would be roughly 45' instead of roughly 50' for mine so you'd need a bit less line but you're going to be buying a spool of it anyway. He would slacken the far side dock lines & tighten up the near side ones, adjusting them so the boat was in the slip diagonally to account for the angle to the dock cleat he was going to use so the pull was perpendicular to the boat and well supported by the far side uppers & lowers. He'd then attach the tackle to one of the dock cleats a couple of slips down and just start hauling in. He'd probably get the boat heeled over close to 60 degrees from vertical? Then he'd stand on the far side dock and used a brush he'd made from 2" PVC with a bend near the brush end and then a T to make the "brush". He'd wrapped several layers of carpet around the head of the T to make the brush. The head of the T was about 2' long or so, and you'd need to make the handle long enough to reach from either side of your slip. You could probably also do it from your own boat, but the footing would be tricky.

Let us know how it goes.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2008 : 11:22:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 Anybody know how much if anything noticeable shifting your weight a bit farther forward rather than single-handed sailing sitting near the stern has on speed ?

Also, what is the proper way to tune the boom vang for max advantage in say 5 mph vs 10 or 15 mph wind when going downwind ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Im light air it's helpful, but not in moderate to stronger winds. It reduces the boat's wetted surface, which reduces drag.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2008 : 18:11:36

Careening your boat, or pulling it out, to work on the bottom is certainly the traditional way, but I'm still planning to buy/make a [url="http://dridiver.com/index.html"]floating scrubber[/url] like the Dri-Diver that was discussed just a few weeks ago here. It seems like it would save a lot of time, effort, and cost.

Edited by - on

willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2008 : 19:23:32

Steve,
An inexpensive way to improve downwind performance is to get a whisker pole for your current jib.
Willy

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/07/2008 : 19:56:38

You're absolutely right Willy. I've been using a small adjustable pole (not a whisker pole) as a whisker pole and it really helps downwind wing on wing. In fact that is the reason I am leaning towards a 135% jib with a good Forespar HD 6-12 whisker pole. I believe the 135% should give me more speed upwind as well as downwind with the pole. Overall probably better than a spin and my 110%. The following year I'll buy the spin and I'll be all set.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2008 : 13:06:48

I've thought about this a lot and in looking back, there were a few things I did.

I added weight to the bow of the boat. For my WK it points a lot better. My 250 will out point 90% of the boats in our racing fleet.

Definitely get a good whisker pole and have your crew practice how to use it. Especially getting it out and rounding the final mark. Your boat is light and with our wide hulls we have a distinct advantage downwind especially is light air. I sometimes run away with this leg.

Learn how to use the starboard tack to block your competitors and make them tack. (Remember though, this is "fun" racing and don't force someone into damaging his or your boat!) I've watched this get out of hand.

Make sure your crew is on the ball when rounding the mark. As you jib, make sure you let out the sheets and let the wind pull you around keeping the speed up.

Make your crew sit forward and up on the "rails" keeping the bottom as flat as possible.

This may not be a safe idea and I am not experienced with ballast boats, but it seems to me on light days I would use less water in there and the keel would come up on the downwind.

Changing your sails to a larger sail (135-150) would also affect your PF rating (if they are using these) and cause you to start later and possibly losing the advantage your looking for. I am running a 130 which is standard on the 250 WK and it is plenty on most days. We do not run spinnakers as most in our fleet do not have them including me.

Practice with your crew, not just on race day. We strive to run a perfect race. Does it ever happen? No! On the average I would say we make one or two critical mistakes during a race costing us time or distance. If your fleet is handicapped you realize how many times half the fleet is separated by feet at the final run to the finish. If only we didn't make that one error at the start!

Use your traveller. Release the traveller before you tack and allow the wind to pull it over the other side. It is then set before the jib is.

Pull up your motor. No propellers in the water.

When cleaning the hull, make sure there is no sea weed on the keel.

Everyone wears gloves.

Sail should be all the way out even in a hurricane. Never use a reef, learn how to sail in 25 mph wind. If it gets any higher, they'll call the race.

Use your outhaul properly. Let it out in light wind, in for strong wind.

I realize you want to spend lots of money to go faster, but a lot of things can be done to knock off minutes in any race without spending too much.

I would consider the larger jib. Just make sure you know how to add this without making the boat unsafe. Me, I've put the main in the water several time! (It really makes a mess of the interior.)

Edited by - Turk on 09/12/2008 13:10:24

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