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Jib size for Racing: 135% to 155%?

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/15/2008 : 12:54:23

After much consideration and recommendations it now seems clear that I need to buy a new jib and maybe also a asym spinnaker. It seems to be the consensus that for a C250WB a jib size of 135% is the best choice but I wonder if this is mainly for cruising? On Wednesday nights we usually have very light winds (6 knots) and I wonder if I should go with a 150% instead? This way I would have 2 sails, the 110% and the 150% and could change these according to wind conditions.

So my question is what jib size would be the best for RACING a C250WB?

Steve Blackburn, Calgary, AB
C250WB - 1999 - Hull 396

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 09/15/2008 12:54:54

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/16/2008 : 09:43:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 On Wednesday nights we usually have very light winds (6 knots)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Based on this, I'd recommend the 150%.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 09/16/2008 : 14:55:28

I just calculated the real wind speed average and it's 8.11. The max win speed we had was 12 knots. However I remember we had gusts in certain races up to 15. At what wind speed do you think I should go from a 150 back to a 110?

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/16/2008 : 16:55:18

You should be able to easily carry the 155 up to 15-18k TWS. I dont have (yet) a #2, so I will carry the #1 until 20k+ before going to the #3 and just twist it off as necessary. Caveat: this is an older sail, one I'm planning on replacing soon, so I dont mind all the twisting and over-pressure - once I get the new #1, I'll use this one in 15-20k until I can afford a racing #2).

I guess I should have asked this: what's the competition using?

When you're racing, you just lose too much power carrying a #2 in light air against a #1. But if everyone else is carrying a 130-140, then it's probably not worth the rating penalty to carry a larger headsail. If you're lucky enough to be racing OD, then carry the biggest sail the class rules allow (everyone else will be).

Jim

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Canada
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Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 10:44:26

Jim, everyone fly's a 150-155. Lot's of Mylar and Kevlar sails, my club is very serious on performance.

What are you ideas on Dacron performance vs the more expensive sails? Have you found a good compromise in terms of bang for the buck? Was looking at National Sails Supply.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 12:20:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 Jim, everyone fly's a 150-155. Lot's of Mylar and Kevlar sails, my club is very serious on performance.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Given that, I'd definitely recommend the 150-155.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What are you ideas on Dacron performance vs the more expensive sails?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If the competition is that serious about performance, you probably need high end hardware to compete. The typical "arms race".

But if they're THAT serious, then their program is likely also more than just performance sails - they put a lot of time into everything else too: bottom prep, rig tune, boat handling, etc. That kevlar genoa looks cool and is fast, but going to the wrong side erases that $1k upgrade quick.

My opinion is definitely that performance sails are faster. It's also that performance sails dont last as long, and will require replacement more frequently, thus that much MORE $. Can you win races with good Dacron sails? ABSOLUTELY, especially if everything else in your program is top notch.

To ask my prior Q slightly differently: how do you compare with the competition and where do you want to finish? Ask yourself this:
Is your bottom in as good (or better) shape than theirs?
Do you tune your rig before each race for the expected conditions? Do they?
Do you start every race in the top 3? (or top 1/3?)
Do you usually make the first cross in the top 3? (or top 1/3?)
Do you usually make the first mark in the top 3? (or top 1/3?)
How do your tacks, sets, jibes, douses compare to the others?
etc...

If you're with them on all of the above, then it might be worth going to performance sails. If the competition is such that you can get by with good Dacron sails, then it's not worth the $ for performance sails.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Have you found a good compromise in terms of bang for the buck? Was looking at National Sails Supply.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That call depends again on what you're trying to do and against whom. If you want to finish in the money (usually top 3-4), then you need to be better than most of the fleet, and can concede to a few boats. If you want to win the show, then compromises will be difficult to come by. At that point, I'd say determine your sailmaker then talk with them to determine the fastest, longest lasting sail you can afford.

Your racing a C250WB boat, which a lot of people dont consider a "racing" boat. Doesnt matter, dont listen to 'em. Race 'em if you got 'em. BUT, what are you racing against? Are you in a 1-design fleet or close enough(ie all C250s) or PHRF? If OD, who's making the sails for the fastest boats? If PHRF, who's making sails for other OD fleets (ARE there any C250 OD fleets?)? If none of the above, who's sails are winning in your area, and do they have a local loft?

I've always been a North boy, and that's what I'm running now. However, North doesnt consider the CP25 worth their time, while other sailmakers HAVE been willing to continue to invest (in our case, primarily Haarstick and EP). I'll probably be changing to EP after this year (yeah, I said that last year too - but I didnt buy any new North sails, either). You're looking at National, how many other C250s in your area are running their stuff?

Jim

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 15:23:24

Is your bottom in as good (or better) shape than theirs? As good. We all have VC17 on our bottoms. However they have faster hulls (Tanzer, SanJuan 7.9).

Do you tune your rig before each race for the expected conditions? Do they? About the same. I tune it in the begining, mid and end season.
Do you start every race in the top 3? (or top 1/3?) NO. I am working on that.
Do you usually make the first cross in the top 3? (or top 1/3?) NO.
Do you usually make the first mark in the top 3? (or top 1/3?) NO.
How do your tacks, sets, jibes, douses compare to the others? Very close I would say, with the equipment I have (hull and sails) I feel I'm extracting pretty close to 100% of the juice I can.

After responding to these questions it is clear that I need to work on lots of things before investing money. I understand now that if one consitently finishes 3rd then going with the high tech sails might just make the difference and win. Not in my case, I'm far away from that. Thanks this really clarifies things for me, it makes perfect sense now: Dacron.

About racing a C250WB, I was also questioning if putting money towards it would be useless because of the hull itself. But considering that I keep up very well with the current boats flying 150's and finish about 2 minutes later that if I would fly a 150 I might at least be equal. The C250WB has a pointing ability advantage over the other boats I race against. Right now it's no contest, I don't have a big enough "engine".

Never heard of Haarstick and EP. Can you provide web sites please?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 09/17/2008 15:24:45

Prospector
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3159 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 16:05:14

Steve,

I am new to sailing this season. Our boat came with a newish Dacron main and 110% and a newish mylar 155%. I use the 155% whenever possible while racing, and have found that we do perfom much better with it, but here's the thing; over the season 3 major eurekas were what moved us up into the top performers.

First thing was figuring out when to sheet tight, and to read when we needed shape vs tight sails
Second was tuning the rig a little looser than I was comfortable with.
Third was using the vang and having someone lean against the boom on a run.
Fourth was to be the first boat out of the marina so we could sail to the start line, using the time to set the lead cars for the genny.

How many of these involve mylar? Have you got your boat running 100% with what you have? if you do, then go spend the money, but if you don't, then figure out the tweaking before you drop a dime.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
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Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 17:23:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 Is your bottom in as good (or better) shape than theirs? As good. We all have VC17 on our bottoms. However they have faster hulls (Tanzer, SanJuan 7.9).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good place to start!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Do you tune your rig before each race for the expected conditions? Do they? About the same. I tune it in the begining, mid and end season.
Do you start every race in the top 3? (or top 1/3?) NO. I am working on that.
Do you usually make the first cross in the top 3? (or top 1/3?) NO.
Do you usually make the first mark in the top 3? (or top 1/3?) NO.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, based on the fact that you're not running OD (I assume you're using PHRF?), that may or may not be an issue. Depending on the rating spread, you could be the last boat around the course and win - it would not be the first time! Personally, I hate that because it takes a lot of tactics OUT of the game. I like nice close (ie <30) point spreads. Then again, I'm an idealist too...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How do your tacks, sets, jibes, douses compare to the others? Very close I would say, with the equipment I have (hull and sails) I feel I'm extracting pretty close to 100% of the juice I can.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If you REALLY think you're getting everything you possibly can from your existing setup, then it's time to condider investing in high performance sails.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">After responding to these questions it is clear that I need to work on lots of things before investing money. I understand now that if one consitently finishes 3rd then going with the high tech sails might just make the difference and win. Not in my case, I'm far away from that. Thanks this really clarifies things for me, it makes perfect sense now: Dacron.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think that's a fair and honest assessment. I think you'll be better off learning to make the boat go fast with Dacron on the cheap THEN springing for the big guns; rather than spending a lot of money burning up high-$ sails working on the remainder of your program.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">About racing a C250WB, I was also questioning if putting money towards it would be useless because of the hull itself.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Depends. Do you like the boat? Do you want a FASTER boat? Do you cruise as well as race? If you're unable to be competitive in your fleet then it's time to consider new hardware - be that better equipment on the existing boat or a new ride. Or even a new rating, if that's the issue.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But considering that I keep up very well with the current boats flying 150's and finish about 2 minutes later that if I would fly a 150 I might at least be equal. The C250WB has a pointing ability advantage over the other boats I race against. Right now it's no contest, I don't have a big enough "engine".<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Based on the above conversations and your local wind conditions, I think going with a Dacron 150-155 would put you right in the mix. Get that down, then consider if it's necessary to "turbocharge" the ride.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Never heard of Haarstick and EP. Can you provide web sites please?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Haarstick - http://www.haarsticksailmakers.com/
EP - http://www.epsails.com/

I dont know how much either shop delves in the C250 world, but I know both are involved in the CP25 arena. For a good Dacron main, you have a TON of choices. Is there a reputable sail loft in your area?

Jim

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 17:43:59

I sail in land locked Alberta. Better chance at finding horse saddles than anything having to do with sailing. Sailshops we typically use are in Vancouver or Victoria. However in my case I usually order from the USA.

Thanks for all the excellent answers!

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 19:18:30

Steve, judging from the conversation on this thread, I would assume you have hank on sails. If correct I would recommend that you try an borrow a 150 from someone and try it, not in a race, but under conditions were you can play with the tuning and see how the sail affects the boat as the wind builds. The sail you borrow does not have to be made for a 250, but you will need one with the luff measurement for the 250, around 28 feet. The forestay is 29'73/4" so you can use that for a reference. I think you will find that the 150 above five knots starts to overpower the 250. The key to speed for the 250 is a flat boat. By that I mean sailing with a heel angle of less that 18 degrees. I have found that with my drifter, which basically is a 155 genny that I can fly it to 5kts and then reef the main to flatten the boat. As the boat approaches 20 degrees I douse the genny and roll out the 135 full. This configuration can be use up to 15kts by playing the mainsheet in gusts to maintain 20 degrees of heel. As the wind builds above 15kts you will have to go to a smaller jib. On my boat I roll the jib in to around a 110-120. As you know the 250 does not sail like a C25 so sail size at different wind speeds for high boat speeds will not be the same due to the bottom configuration. So if you want speed in a 250 keep the boat flat.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 09/17/2008 : 22:31:41

Dacron comes in different grades of material. The largest maker of Dacron is Challenge. Many of the sail lofts will sell Dacron sails out of Challenge Performance or High Modulus sailcloth. A few will sell Dacron sails out of one of the premium grades such as Challenge High Aspect. If you are going to do a comparison of what one sailmaker is charging for Dacron Sails compared to another, then you should at least find out what sailcloth matl they are using since you are basically buying sailcloth. The difference between the sailcloth grades has mostly to do with susceptibility to stretch. The least expensive to most expensive Challenge sailcloths are Challenge Performance, Challenge High Modulus, Challenge High Aspect and Challenge Marblehead. Some sailmakers use other mfrs sailcloth or their own proprietary matl. They may be harder to compare to all those that use Challenge matl. But if you are into trying to do comparisons and the sailmakers you are considering use Challenge matl, then rcmd go to the Challenge Website and to Mack Sails. Mack Sails has a good introduction to the different sailcloth matls so you get a better idea of what you are buying and for what cost.
http://www.macksails.com/sailclth.htm
http://challengesailcloth.com/cloth.htm

I bought cruising sails from Quantum. Quantum and Mack are two mfrs that sell Dacron Sails out of High Aspect matl. There are many fine sailmakers making sails that have served many on this Forum very well and many have bought sails made out of High Modulus or even the Performance matl. But if you are talking about Dacron compared to Mylar for racing, well the primary difference besides the sailcut is that Dacron stretches very early in it's lifespan. Structurally, the Dacron sails will last a long time and longer than the high tech sails. But again if you are racing and going with dacron, then it may pay for you to get an understanding of the different sailcloths being sold.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2008 : 01:20:29

I have a roller furler. Funny that you mention that the key to the 250 speed is keeping it flat because now that I think about it that is how I got my 6.9 knot speeds. I did not realize that this is due to running the boat flat. When I went at 6.9, on both occasions I was on a beam reach with the main all the way out. The boat was almost sailing at about a 5-10 degree angle. I always thought the reason was because my boat just likes beam reaches but now that I think about it, it must be because I was simply sailing flat.

I like the idea of having 1 large jib and rolling it in the wind picks up. However wouldn't a roller jib cause an efficiency loss? This is why I'm thinking now of a 140% where I could run it fully unroller most times.

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 09/21/2008 : 21:33:16

Steve, you never said whether you had a roller or hank on jib. You are correct in that you will lose a little efficiency when you roll in the jib but, in a 250 the reasons to roll it in is to keep the boat flat and maintain speed. As I said, I would find a hank on 150 to borrow and try it.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
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Response Posted - 09/22/2008 : 11:53:21

I hae a roller furler. I don't think I can use a hank on with that right?

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frog0911
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Response Posted - 09/22/2008 : 16:55:50

That is the answer that prevents you from borrowing a 150 to try out unless you want to take the mast down and remove the furler. Well, I guess you will have to take my word that a 150 will overpower the boat. When I purchased my boat, I asked for a 150 on the furler, but was told that it was not available because the boat would be overpowered so I got the biggest available which was a 135. I am glad now they did not have it available because I would have it rolled in to 135 all the time anyway. I fly my 155 genny almost like a asymmetric with no hanks just a free flying luff. I do have a move-able tack which allows the drifter to be flown in front of the furler and makes it much easier to jibe or tack by blowing out the bottom of the sail to bring it over.

Edited by - frog0911 on 09/22/2008 17:07:58

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