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Advice for cabin-top sheeting

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Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
22 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/23/2008 : 04:11:29

I am in the process of designing a cabin-top sheeting system similar to what Frank considered in his cabin top hauler thread and I have a few questions.

First the design:

1. Do I really need multiple bails to spread the load or can I get away with a single bail?
2. How necessary is a boom vang with mid-boom sheeting?
3. Anyone know where I can get a boom bail that's deep enough to allow my sheet to run through it?
4. Is there a rule of thumb regarding the optimal location of the bails? (My initial thought is: middle bail in center of boom, the other two splitting the distance from middle to their ends)
5. Any problems with my design?

Using all new hardware, I figure I can get it done for just under $350 using Harken blocks and my existing mainsheet.

Damien
s/v Schmetterling ('84 C25/fin/std)
Beacon, NY

Edited by - Sryth on 09/23/2008 12:32:23

stampeder
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/23/2008 : 06:34:12

Do you have a pop-top, do you plan on using your pop-top and how would your system deal with raising the pop-top?

BTW- nice rendering

how much have you sailed your C-25?

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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Response Posted - 09/23/2008 : 08:48:03

I posted something along these lines a while back and got much useful feedback on [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13206"]that thread[/url], check it out. Hmmm, I had pictures somewhere but where did they go?

Edit: I think they used to be [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14186"]here[/url] but I think my post there points to a photo album that no longer exists. Maybe I'll have time tonite...

Edited by - ilnadi on 09/23/2008 08:58:40

aeckhart
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USA
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Response Posted - 09/23/2008 : 11:41:45

Novel idea.

Edited by - on

Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/23/2008 : 12:22:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stampeder
 Do you have a pop-top, do you plan on using your pop-top and how would your system deal with raising the pop-top?

BTW- nice rendering

how much have you sailed your C-25?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I do have a pop top, and figured I could just hook the boom to the pigtail (or use the topping lift I keep putting off installing) and ease the sheet to raise the pop top.

Thanks for the compliment on the rendering; can't take all the credit though as I just cleaned up the line drawings in the brochure a bit. If anyone wants the full cleaned up drawings let me know

I've had the boat for about 4 years now, but my sailing has waned a bit this summer (my sailing bud moved to NZ

). My itch to sail has been revitalized and next spring I will be single-handing if I have to!

I was very close to hitting the checkout button on all this gear when I realized that maybe I'm overdoing it a bit with the 4 bails.

Questions that just occurred to me:
6. Am I going to significantly weaken my boom by adding these bails?
7. What kind of bails should I get? It would seem like roller bails would be perfect for this.
8. Should the block at the gooseneck be on a bail to the boom, a bail to the mast, or a slug in the mast track?
9. Should I be shopping somewhere other than Defender and WM?

Edited by - Sryth on 09/23/2008 12:32:03

Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 09/23/2008 : 16:39:19

Yes the C-25's traveller is a PITA, but I don't see the benefit of re-inventing the wheel. I see cabintop sheeting as a non-solution for our boats since they basically take the pop-top out of comission - the pop-top is often opened on our boat.

Why not put a Harken small boat track across the back of the cockpit on a bridge that goes over the tiller. Put a knuckle in the tiller just forward of the traveller track and you can still raise it out of the way when not in use, and you can put blocks on the traveller so that you meet class rules if racing.

To run a traveller across the cockpit you need a track, some cars, and a hunk of wood. Seems a lot cheaper and simpler to me than all the stuff you are putting up on the cabintop. Of course I love simple elegance.

Edited by - on

Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/23/2008 : 18:33:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Yes the C-25's traveller is a PITA, but I don't see the benefit of re-inventing the wheel. I see cabintop sheeting as a non-solution for our boats since they basically take the pop-top out of comission - the pop-top is often opened on our boat.

Why not put a Harken small boat track across the back of the cockpit on a bridge that goes over the tiller. Put a knuckle in the tiller just forward of the traveller track and you can still raise it out of the way when not in use, and you can put blocks on the traveller so that you meet class rules if racing.

To run a traveller across the cockpit you need a track, some cars, and a hunk of wood. Seems a lot cheaper and simpler to me than all the stuff you are putting up on the cabintop. Of course I love simple elegance.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The main benefit would be to clean up the cockpit. I can't stand the sheet in it's current location, and this design still allows you to raise pop-top while on the hook. I don't sail with my pop-top up, as I don't think it's very safe or necessary.

It's hard to get cheaper than this. $350 (<$300 if using Ronstan blocks) for the hardware is pretty damn cheap compared to a track traveler setup...I think you might pass that with just the track/car. I don't race, so I can break the rules all day. If I decided to race, I could certainly pull out the old mainsheet and rig up the old traveler.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 09/24/2008 : 07:55:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sryth
 5. Any problems with my design?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you ever intend to have a bimini?

Also, with your planned location, I'm envisioning someone getting clotheslined while entering/exiting the cabin.

Edited by - on

Sryth
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Response Posted - 09/24/2008 : 08:23:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sryth
 5. Any problems with my design?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you ever intend to have a bimini?

Also, with your planned location, I'm envisioning someone getting clotheslined while entering/exiting the cabin.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A Bimini is on my list for next spring. I figure this will enable me to situate the Bimini more aft, which sounds nice.

Yeah, I can see that everyone will need to exercise a bit more caution when in the companionway, but I've had people get whipped by the mainsheet in the cockpit as well. There's no substitute for situational awareness!

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 09/24/2008 : 08:49:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sryth
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sryth
 5. Any problems with my design?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you ever intend to have a bimini?

Also, with your planned location, I'm envisioning someone getting clotheslined while entering/exiting the cabin.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A Bimini is on my list for next spring. I figure this will enable me to situate the Bimini more aft, which sounds nice.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unless you design your bimini so the backstay goes through it, you won't gain that much with the absence of the mainsheet.

Also, most bimini's overlap the companionway, including mine, to provide additional shade to the interior of the cabin, but more importantly, it allows you to leave the hatchboards out when it rains. On my last cruise, it must have rained nearly 50% of the time and having the ability to leave the hatchboards out provided ventilation for the three kids lounging on the queen sized mattress down below and enabled my wife and I unfettered access to the cabin.

Just a thought...

Edited by - dlucier on 09/24/2008 08:50:49

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/24/2008 : 10:02:13

Mid-boom sheeting doesn't entirely eliminate the need for a vang, although it makes the vang somewhat less necessary because the traveler can cover more of the boom's arc. Dead downwind, with the boom all the way out, a vang will still help keep the boom down and the sail flat.

I'm not sure what you mean by "roller bails"... If you mean the "claws" (with rollers) used for a mainsheet with roller-reefing around the boom, I don't see how they would work with the angles you're proposing. They're meant to pull perpendicular to the boom.

As for the placement of multiple bails on the boom, first I'd say more than one is a good idea to make up for the greater leverage against the sheeting system. But I'd keep them closer together so the downward pull is well under 45 degrees from vertical. Otherwise, those outer bails aren't really relieving much load from the center one. There are many boats with multi-point mid-boom sheeting systems--I think they'll illustrate my point.

Now the disclaimer--I'm not recommending that you do this... but it's interesting. Also, you might want to get an opinion from Catalina--they have no ax to grind, since the warranty ran out quite some time ago.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 09/24/2008 10:04:41

Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/24/2008 : 15:04:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 I'm not sure what you mean by "roller bails"... If you mean the "claws" (with rollers) used for a mainsheet with roller-reefing around the boom, I don't see how they would work with the angles you're proposing. They're meant to pull perpendicular to the boom.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I saw them on Defender's site...they look like squared bails with shackles that have a bushing around the pin so they roll as the boom is sheeted out. It seems they're called 'rolling bails'...[url="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|319697|311639|311640&id=137133"]Here's a link to one[/url]. Think the regular bails are fine for this?

Most bails I see use bolts that run through the boom. Should I use a compression post for these holes?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As for the placement of multiple bails on the boom, first I'd say more than one is a good idea to make up for the greater leverage against the sheeting system. But I'd keep them closer together so the downward pull is well under 45 degrees from vertical. Otherwise, those outer bails aren't really relieving much load from the center one. There are many boats with multi-point mid-boom sheeting systems--I think they'll illustrate my point.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just the sort of advice I was looking for; thanks!

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Now the disclaimer--I'm not recommending that you do this... but it's interesting. Also, you might want to get an opinion from Catalina--they have no ax to grind, since the warranty ran out quite some time ago.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I hereby absolve you of all responsibility both legally and ethically for anything that happens to my boat or crew! lol How responsive is Catalina and how should I go about contacting them?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2008 : 22:52:27

Actually, those roller bails look like a good idea--as they say, to reduce the torque against the boom. I'd use them.

If you're talking about compression sleeves (tubes around the bolts), I don't think you need them, because you don't need to compress the boom. Use nylock nuts, but don't tighten very hard. (The bails probably have instructions along these lines.)

I haven't dealt with Catalina, but some others here have... Maybe somebody will chime in with a contact.

Edited by - on

smoken
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/25/2008 : 23:22:59

This is something I'm very interested in, how does this work with a loose footed sail? Maybe I'm just adjusting, but my last two boats were Hunters. No back stays. I'm not really having any problems yet but, all that stuff in the way makes it tough at times, to get to the motor. I'm thinking a traveler mounted on the seats at the companion way should work. Still, I don't know anything about the loose footed main. I did read about maybe breaking the boom with a loose footed main!!! Any wisdom for a guy that's just trying to get along???

Edited by - on

Sryth
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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 02:46:23

The main argument against mid-boom sheeting for a loose footed main is that you're putting more pressure on the boom at the boom bail. The increase in pressure comes from the fact that the upward force on the boom is at it's extremities, thereby increasing leverage on that point. Add in the fact that you weaken the boom at that point (drills typically do this) and you may have a recipe for a cracked boom. To alleviate this you must distribute the load over the foot of the sail or the bottom of the boom.

Having said all that, I have also read that the foot of a rope-footed sail does play a role in supporting the sail...it's there for mere aerodynamic purposes. It would seem that the majority of tension (read: support) is at the clew/tack.

Now I'm still worried about breaking my boom, hence my desire for multiple bails. I'm curious if the other people who did mid-boom sheeting modifications used a multi-bail setup or just slapped a single bail on there and used their old mainsheet...anyone?

Edited by - on

ilnadi
Captain

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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 07:38:20

On one of the threads below there was discussion of boom strength and mitigation.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ilnadi
 I posted something along these lines a while back and got much useful feedback on [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13206"]that thread[/url], check it out. Hmmm, I had pictures somewhere but where did they go?

Edit: I think they used to be [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14186"]here[/url] but I think my post there points to a photo album that no longer exists. Maybe I'll have time tonite...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 07:54:49

I have a C25 that has what could be described as a radar arch over the cabin! It is a non-pop-top and has a wood and metal arch about 15 inches above the cabin and about 15 inches towards the mast from the rear edge of the cabin. On the top of the arch is a traveler and the original mainsheet. There are two bails, one directly above the arch and one about 12" nearer the mast but only one is in use. If you look at the thumbnail in my signature you can see what I'm describing. I'll get some decent pictures of it tonight. It makes for a much more open cockpit and it allows the bimini to cover the hatch.
Ed

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 07:55:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by smoken
 I'm thinking a traveler mounted on the seats at the companion way should work.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here's one way to do it, in the Tech Tips: http://catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/TRBimini20060319.asp

And, I have a loose-footed main. I don't think the mainsail foot is relevant to any of this.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 08:50:50

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 09:27:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by smoken
 This is something I'm very interested in, how does this work with a loose footed sail? Maybe I'm just adjusting, but my last two boats were Hunters. No back stays. I'm not really having any problems yet but, all that stuff in the way makes it tough at times, to get to the motor. I'm thinking a traveler mounted on the seats at the companion way should work. Still, I don't know anything about the loose footed main. I did read about maybe breaking the boom with a loose footed main!!! Any wisdom for a guy that's just trying to get along???
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

FellowShip's bimini will not allow a traveler at the companionway which is why I considered a bridle system bridging the cabin top in front of the bimini. The bottom line for '89ers is that the traveler on an '89 is so much better than the travelers on the other years that you should simply get used to the "activity" at the back of the boat. An aft mainsheet is very common on sailboats.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 09/26/2008 : 09:53:22

In regards to cabintop sheeting, as a singlehander, I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to adjust the mainsheet whilst still having command of the tiller. When out on the water, I generally sit towards the rear of the cockpit if not all the way back, which would make cabintop sheeting a bit of an inconvenience.

Edited by - on

Sryth
Deckhand

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/27/2008 : 14:20:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 In regards to cabintop sheeting, as a singlehander, I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to adjust the mainsheet whilst still having command of the tiller. When out on the water, I generally sit towards the rear of the cockpit if not all the way back, which would make cabintop sheeting a bit of an inconvenience.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This is a good point...I suppose I could put another block at the end of the boom and run it back to the cockpit to a block/cam. Then the control of it would be similar to the original system. Let the line run through to the end-of-boom block and cleat it there to go back to the cabin-top controls.

Another option would be to run it through an over-the-top block on the cabin top back to the helm somewhere.

Or I could just get a tiller extension and sit forward :P

The show stopper for running the sheet down the mast is the interference of the boom vang. An overlarge bail should work, but I have yet to find one.

Edited by - Sryth on 09/27/2008 14:24:07

jerlim
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Response Posted - 10/03/2008 : 14:02:23

Has any thought been given to the amount of energy required to sheet in while in operation? Granted the design is typical in shape, but some investigation needs to be given to the magnitude of the actual load (I guess in foot pounds), then factor the mechanical advantage of the multi-part system with the inefficiencies of the wheel diameters. I haven't done this type of math in a long while (really long), but ultimately, you're going to learn just how much strength is necessary to operate the system. Might be worth looking into.

Edited by - on

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