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Catalina 25 keel

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psechrist
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/27/2008 : 15:24:37

Hi to everyone.
I just bought a 1977 Catalina 25 yesterday. Don't know much about sailing or the boat but I am about to learn by fire.
My first question, to anyone who is kind enough to help, is about the keel.
The keel on this boat is iron & fixed. Quite pitted, about 1/4" to 1/2" deep. I take it from saltwater use. The fiberglass terminates a few inches down the keel.
Not really sealed in any way. Is this normal & typical for this boat? Any information will be helpful. I would really like to understand how the keel is fastened to the boat also.
Thanks, Pat Sechrist

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 11/27/2008 : 17:10:01

The keel is held onto the boat by "keel bolts" which you can see under the sole (floor). There is probably a piece of teak in the center of the sole. Pick it up and you will see the bolts.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2008 : 06:22:27

The iron keel is attached by keel bolts under the plywood plank in the interior floor of the boat. Generally, they last well, but if the boat is used extensively in salt water, occasionally they can corrode over time, so they should be inspected. If corroded, they can be replaced.

The joint between the keel and hull should be well-sealed and watertight, and, although there have been instances where that seal has been broken, it doesn't appear to be common with C25s.

On an older boat, it's hard to say whether the keel is deeply pitted, or whether it just looks that way. After many layers of bottom paint have been applied over many years, the paint peels and splits and falls off in chunks, and what looks like pitting might be just that, or might be years of paint accumulation. You can't be sure what it is unless you strip the old paint off the keel, so you can see what's really underneath. Paint stripper is good for that purpose, but be careful to use it only on the keel. If you get it on the fiberglass hull surface, it will damage the gelcoat. After the accumulation is removed, then you can decide how to smooth the surface, and, if it's corroding, how to protect it from further corrosion.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/28/2008 06:26:06

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2008 : 11:42:10

If you have the dinette interior (a "booth" on the port side), you can see the keel bolts under the cover on the aft dinette seat. On your vintage, the nuts and bolts are mild steel, not stainless, and will probably look rusty. If the nuts look like they're all but rusted away, it might be time to "sister" some new keel bolts in--they can't really be replaced. Catalina Direct has a kit for doing it, but the drilling and tapping is a major operation. At least one guy here has had it done professionally--I don't know for what cost.

The pitting is very common--there's probably still plenty of cast iron there (1900 lbs. to start with). You can fair it with epoxy putty, but almost anything on rusting iron is temporary. Keep it painted to slow the corrosion--use a primer under the bottom paint (which, because of the copper, can speed the corrosion). "Rust reformer" (a paint-like substance) under the primer can further retard the pitting.

Now my standard commercial... A $350 professional survey will ease your mind, give you a prioritized list of things to attend to, and allow you to ask lots of questions. It might also be required by your insurer. (You are getting at least liability coverage, right?) For many of us, it was the best money we spent on the boat.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/28/2008 11:53:36

psechrist
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2008 : 17:48:19

Thanks for the help.
I am going to tow it home tomorrow & will take a photo & post it so everyone can see what I am talking about. From the responses I take it that the Iron keel is never encapsulated with fiberglass to the bottom?
It is going to be a fun first tow through the heart of Los Angeles & about a 100 miles on Southern California freeways.
Thanks again, Pat Sechrist.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/28/2008 : 20:22:01

No, it was not encapsulated. Starting in about 1883, Catalina changed to lead encapsulated in something sorta like asbestos--some call it fiberglass but it didn't look like that to me. (I had it, and saw another boat where it was damaged by a grounding.) Every cast iron keel I've seen on older C-25s has had rust stains and some pitting. I've heard claims of successful encapsulation by owners, but I haven't seen it. On balance, I don't think it's worth the effort--a little rust is a cosmetic issue that nobody can see until you haul her out.

The cast iron keels are also more prone to the "Catalina Smile"--a bap between the keel and the hull, particular toward the foward part. That could be a corrosion factor for the keel bolts. I'd be inclined to inject 3M 5200 into the gap, for its adhesive and flexibility properties. Maybe there's a better material...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/28/2008 20:24:18

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/29/2008 : 06:46:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 No, it was not encapsulated. Starting in about 1883, Catalina changed to lead encapsulated in something....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> (Imagine! Dave has been a proud Catalina owner for a century-and-a-quarter!)

Encapsulation of the keel makes it smoother and consequently makes the boat a little faster, but the casing can be damaged in a grounding, and if the seal is broken and water gets in, it can become a problem. The cast iron keel is more rugged, and not much can hurt it seriously. If racing is important to you, you can fair the cast iron keel with filler material, and it'll be as fast as the encapsulated keel. The encapsulated keel is nice, and less of a maintenance problem, as long as it doesn't get damaged, but, with respect to long term durability, I would prefer a good old solid 1900# chunk of cast iron.

Welcome to the forum, and to sailing! If you're new to sailing, many organizations are offering very inexpensive basic boating and sailing courses during the winter. Check with your local Coast Guard Auxiliary and US Power Squadron. They'll both have booths at local boat shows.

Edited by - on

tbosch
Navigator

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163 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 12:39:56

The keel on my 1980 fin keel is faired. There were quite a few cracks in that material, some of which had popped out completely. I used the boat for my first season without doing any keel maintenance. After the season in cold, fresh water the keel looked the same. I didn't notice additional deterioration. I'm sure that there was some. It just wasn't extreme or quickly developing.

Over this last summer I ground out any area that showed cracks and/or rust. Using a wire brush on an angle grinder I removed all of the rust from the exposed cast iron.

The fairing was particularly thick and in bad shape around the lettering from the casting process, which evidently occured south of the border...

Once the metal was free of rust I used a stiff wire brush to apply an unfilled coating of epoxy. You really scrub hard with the wire brush to get the epoxy into the metal and free of any rust. It all turns kind of gray. You can also see the "smile" are in this picture. I cleaned the crack as well and as deep as I could and forced epoxy filled with bonding filler to fill the hull shoe to keel joint. The larger shiny area is just unfilled epoxy scoured into the cast iron.

I then refaired the hull using epoxy and sandable fairing filler.

After sanding, re-filling low spots, re-sanding, etc. I applied 2 more coats of unfilled epoxy to the entire keel. It is now awaiting spring and new bottom paint.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 13:46:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 No, it was not encapsulated. Starting in about 1883, Catalina changed to lead encapsulated in something....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> (Imagine! Dave has been a proud Catalina owner for a century-and-a-quarter!)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good thing I didn't write for a living... Oops, wait--I did!

(Almost forgot!)

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 13:47:16

Very nice job! You don't see many cast iron keels that smooth. The payback for your effort will be when you sail it next spring! It'll make a huge improvement.

After all these years, this is the first time I've ever seen that lettering on the keel. I've never heard of anyone uncovering it. Very interesting.

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 14:31:38

Todd, what boat is that keel on? It does not look right for a C 25... or did they change the keel shape when they went to lead?

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 15:00:29

It does look atypical doesn't it? heck of a nice job though!

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tbosch
Navigator

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163 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 15:20:23

Thanks for the comments on the keel work. It was a big job. Over the summer I also replaced thru-hulls (tech article coming soon), added thur-transom cockpit drains, and upgraded the bow stem fitting. The cockpit drains (kit from CD) posed some interesting challenges/surprises on my C25. I may write a tech tip on that, too.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 16:03:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Todd, what boat is that keel on? It does not look right for a C 25... or did they change the keel shape when they went to lead?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It looks pretty close to what I remember of my lead keel... I always suspected the asbestos-like stuff (1"+) on the lead was meant to reproduce the overall shape of the original iron keel, which was less dense and therefore had more metal. Otherwise, the lead fins would've smoked all the others at Nationals.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 19:49:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave BristleIt looks pretty close to what I remember of my lead keel... I always suspected the asbestos-like stuff (1"+) on the lead was meant to reproduce the overall shape of the original iron keel, which was less dense and therefore had more metal. Otherwise, the lead fins would've smoked all the others at Nationals.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I wouldn't bet against the cast iron keels. Derek Crawford's is a 1981 iron fin, and mine was a 1980 iron fin keel. Bill Meinert's is a 1977 cast iron swinger.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 22:15:54

Catalina must have gotten a lot of their keels cast in Mexico. Most of the C-22 swing keels as well as both my C-22 and C-25 swing keels all have a Mexico stamping.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2008 : 23:11:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 I wouldn't bet against the cast iron keels. Derek Crawford's is a 1981 iron fin, and mine was a 1980 iron fin keel. Bill Meinert's is a 1977 cast iron swinger.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...but you weren't racing against a fin that was 1/3 the thickness of yours (if the "filler" was left off the lead keel). Judging from racing keels I've seen, that would appear to make a difference.

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psechrist
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2008 : 18:16:16

I really like the photos of the keel job. I will have to use it as a model. I have not had the camera with me the couple of times I have been over to the boat but will do so soon.
After more review I now think that the gaping chunks in the one side of my keel is a casting defect. The other side is in good shape as far as corrosion goes but the pitted side is so bad I am going to have to do some filling.
A photo is worth a thousand words. In my case maybe two thousand.

Pat Sechrist

Edited by - on

psechrist
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2008 : 15:23:57

Here is the promised photo. OK maybe not. This will be a test to see if I can post a photo. If there is no photo could someone tell me what I need to do?
[C:Documents and SettingsOwnerMy DocumentsMy Pictures]

Thanks, Pat Sechrist

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2008 : 15:31:41

Go to the Testing forum (open All Forums) for instructions. It involves storing the pix somewhere else on the net (like Shutterfly.com) and then copying and pasting the URL.

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psechrist
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2008 : 16:05:19

Thanks.
[http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=272322252/PictureID=6402630598/a=102930247_102930247/t_=102930247[img]

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/07/2008 : 16:59:25

The URL needs to be to a JPG or GIF. I think some picture sites don't work for us because they don't make direct references to the graphic file. Also, the URL goes between the {IMG} and {/IMG} (with square brackets) that you get when you click the

button.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/07/2008 17:02:09

Rich P
1st Mate

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USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2008 : 22:35:13

Pat's keel pic:

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2008 : 08:18:06

Wow is that sucker pitted. I agree it looks like a defect and I'll bet it knocks a knot off your hull speed.

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Walt Oler
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2008 : 16:40:19

This may help with posting photos:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18881

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