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sealing leak with foam

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crcox040544
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/16/2008 : 09:38:43

i have a 1980 catalina 25 swing keel.
there is a small leak somewhere under the floor.
does anyone know the digagram of the small bildge?
has anyone tried to fill this area with poured foam?
thanks

charles cox

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2008 : 11:08:27

Charles,
The area under the floor (the bilge) collects most of the water that enters the boat. You may actually have a leak under the floor but that would mean a hull breach and your boat would be in danger of sinking. See if you can determine where the water is coming from.
The most common contributor is rain water leaking into your boat and accumulating in the bilge. Do not fill the area under the floor with foam. You need access to that area. Is your boat in fresh or salt water? If salt you can taste the water to see if its salty or not.

Edited by - on

crcox040544
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2008 : 11:16:08

i do have a hull breach but it is small and only seems to fill to the water line and then stop. I would rather have the water from rain collect in the floor than continue to have the water in the bildge.
thanks

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2008 : 13:54:40

If the hull is cracked somewhere below the waterline, and it fills to the waterline, it will float lower, and then it will fill to the new waterline, and then it will float lower, and then it will fill to the new waterline...

I believe this is called sinking!

If you can haul the boat out one way or the other, you can start to look at the hull. The swing keel box is an important structural part of your boat that may have taken one-too-many shocks over the years.

Rain leaks are so much simpler, as you must now gather.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2008 : 13:57:56

Also, try to prove to yourself that the water comes from below, not above. I guess you have a bilge pump that empties the boat til it is pretty dry. And I guess you see water when it does not rain. Both those are important tests.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 07:41:32

If you do have a leak below the water line you need to take it very seriously. The only solution is to find the leak and have it properly repaired. Show it to a local boatyard or take pictures of it and post them here to get some sound advise.

Edited by - DaveR on 12/17/2008 07:43:09

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 07:52:16

Charles,
Also check around the base of the keel trunk for dampness. If it is damp and you have the traditional interior, pull the wood box over the keel trunk and check for a crack in the trunk. By the way, the waterline is several inches above the floor of the boat!

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 08:04:20

Welcome to the association, Charles! If you use the Search function, choose the C-25 Forum, select Archived Posts, and look for words like "swing" and "leak", I suspect you'll find quite a few threads on this.

It would be nice to find out it's just rain water--most of us have had a little of that issue... But if it collects in dry weather, you have a problem. BTW, your waterline is well above the cabin sole, and as noted, rises as water enters the hull.

One relatively common issue with the swing keel is a broken cable or cable attachment some time in the boat's history, which allows a raised keel to swing down with the force of 1500 lbs of cast iron, crashing into the front edge of the keel trunk. This has cracked the hull just forward of the keel, and even sunk several boats.

Don't try to use foam--it is not proper repair or protection against leaks, and certainly won't prevent sinking unless you fill with foam up to the windows. Get the bilge completely dry, and then see where the water is coming from. If it's what I described, you need a professional repair--the structure there is very important. If you can't tell, then get the boat out of the water, put some water in the bilge, and see where it leaks out.

Good luck, and keep in touch as you go along.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/17/2008 09:14:29

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 08:24:22

Good point Dave. I had damage in my trunk from a mishap with the keel. In my case there was visible signs of damage to the interior gel coat surrounding the trunk.Charles inspect this area very closely.

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crcox040544
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 10:19:28

thanks for all the help
this is a dinnet model. how do inspect the keel trunk?
the boat seems to fill to some level and stop. I wanted to use the foam to just take up the space.

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 11:40:30

Charles the damage to my boat was on the aft end of the trunk. It was bad enough to fracture the gel coat on the corner of the seat. That is where the water started trickling in. It's a long story (with a good ending), but what you need to check is the space between the aft edge of the trunk and the inside of the seat (inner liner). There is very little room between the two, and the upper side of the seat makes it near impossible to look down at it. Use a small mirror and flash light, or slide some paper between the two and see if the paper gets wet.
I am however confused about the water only filling to a certain level. Water entering from a breached hull normally continues to rise. One more trick you might try. If you can get at the area the water is pocketing, dry it and with a water soluble marker (not a permanent ink marker like a Sharpie)draw a circle around the perimeter of the spot. If the boat remains calm and the water seeps back in, it will wash away the part of the circle it flows over. This will at least tell you what direction the water is coming from.

Edited by - on

crcox040544
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 12:10:09

all i can figure out is that the bildge area is so small that when it fills the boat is still high enough to stay floated.

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 14:46:10

Charles, on the dinette model the keel trunk damage is usually in the forward seat compartment. Empty the compartment out and look for softness or a crack in the hump where the pivot is encapsulated . If the damage was caused by an unintended deployment of the keel, it will show there. The archives posted by Ken Caves on this subject leave nothing to the imagination.

If you are lucky there will be no indications that the keel was damaged. In which case check the aft end of the keel. Some times leakage occurs in the tube where the cable comes into the boat from. Look for loose hose clamps or a corroded waterhose. You will find these items behind the companionway stairs under the cover there.
If the boat is in the water go carefully since the hose/boat joint is below the waterline and should you break the rubber hose the ocean/lake will present itself. It is an easier fix than what was discussed regarding front end keel damage.

Keep us informed and best of luck.

Val on the hard, DAGNABIT, # 3936, tallrig, swing to wing retrofit
Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 15:21:32

Charles, you haven't mentioned how long it takes for the bilge to fill with water. Can you watch it fill or is it something that you notice after you return to the boat after an absence? How much time elapses from a dry bilge to a full bilge? Does you bilge pump work?

Try Glen's idea but, use colored chalk instead of marker. Easier to clean up afterward.

Edited by - on

crcox040544
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 17:01:23

tinob,
can not seem to find the post by ken cave but i remember reading it at one time. how did you find it?
thanks

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 17:12:17

Charles,

I am wondering if the reason it fills only to a certain level is because the crack/leak point is below the water line but as water collects/drains to the low point in your boat, it alters the boat trim a tad and then the crack/leak point is no longer below the water line. If this is the case, you may want to inspect closely adjacent to the areas/line at which the water levels off inside. It is possible that the leak/crack will be barely perceptible from the inside...maybe like permeating out and therefore very hard to locate.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 21:03:29

Hi Charles,

How much water are you finding in the bilge? If it's say less than an inch, I'm betting it is just water collected in the inaccessible part of our dinette layout bilges seeping through one of the small connecting holes. At first it may seem like it is a leak under the waterline, but eventually you can dry it out. I actually had the same thought when I first bought my boat and I was drying her out while she was in the water. I kept sponging the bilge dry, but it slowly would fill back up a slight amount, then stop. The first thing that came to my mind was I thought I had a leak! It then occurred to me that if it were in fact a leak under the waterline, it would have continued to fill with more and more water and we'd soon be underwater. After more sponging out, the water soon stopped. I hope this is the same case for you, that it's just water flowing between the very bottom bilge and under the seat.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2008 : 22:33:12

By any chance does the leak start or stop when the keel is raised or lowered? If there is damage from a falling keel, it's possible that the stress at the point of damage when the keel is up is different from the stress with it down, possibly opening or closing a crack. Just another wild-hare theory, trying to explain the accumulation stopping below the waterline...

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 09:35:44

Charles,

A friend of mine with a C-25 swing keel hired a boatyard expert to repair and reinforce his keel box, because it would sway to port or starboard when the boat heeled significantly the oppposite way. The repair worked great, and he now has a new 1980 swing-keel system.

Since this design feature is a weak point in the C-25 swing keel boats, your repair has the potential to solve several of the associated problems you can have, such as problems with the bronze pivot, the keel cable, the cable winch, the cable turning ball, and the cable tube.

Lots of info in the archives if you search for "swing keel box" or "swing keel cable", etc.

Here is the [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech25/dragn2.asp"]link to the tip[/url] mentioned by Val above.

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 09:50:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by crcox040544
 tinob,
can not seem to find the post by ken cave but i remember reading it at one time. how did you find it?
thanks
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Charles, Ken Cave and I were having the same problem. We both had a cataclysmic deployment of the swing keel causing major damage to the keel trunk in the forward dinette seat storage area. His solution was to have a fiberglass pro cut out and reglass the hinge area of the swing. A the time Ken had pictures of his repair posted an they were shared as the need arrived. That was some time ago and I just thought they were still available. I did a similar glass refabrication the first time the keel mechanism malfunctioned. The second time it happened I replaced the swing keel with a wing keel which in effect plugs up the whole swing trunk with the wing. Costly but ten years later the bilge is as dry as can be.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT, #3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

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crcox040544
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 09:56:50

thanks johnp.
looks like this is what i need to do. lot of work but this is most likely the real problem.
bob

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2008 : 10:24:55

If I were looking at a major repair there, I'd compare the cost of, and seriously consider retrofitting the wing keel, as Val did. That should require less extensive glass work to the damaged area because the wing puts less stress there, and it essentially fills and seals the trunk. The wing draws only a couple of inches more than the fully raised swing, so it's just as trailerable, but eliminates all of the maintenance issues, noises, leaks, cranking, etc. That's the decision Catalina made in 1988.

Some who've had it done have had the keel shipped from Catalina along with a boat they're shipping to the same area. I have no idea of the costs... Is a 1980 C-25 worth it? That's a totally personal decision, but it will almost certainly increase the value somewhat.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/18/2008 10:30:04

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2008 : 13:11:30

We had a trickle leak last year, noticed it right after we launched in the Spring. We couldn't find the source, and finally had the yard pull the boat. We then put water INTO the bilge and were able to locate the source from the outside...there was a tiny chip/puncture in the very aft end of the trunk. Although we could not prove it, and the yard offered no insights, we surmise that the bracket connecting the lift cable to the keel created the pin hole when the yard stored the boat for the winter. We expect they sat her too hard onto the keel...it was an easy enough repair and has been dry ever since.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2008 : 10:33:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">there is a small leak somewhere under the floor.
does anyone know the diagram of the small bilge?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Exactly where are you finding this water? The dinette model in 1977 is compartmentalized. I had water coming into the forward settee with the boat on the hard. It wasn't raining. It would show up every day, up to a level and then stop.

I found the main bilge, the part under the salon floor, full of water and it was slowly leaking into the forward settee, around the compression post tabbing. I found the bilge area under the head, the bilge area under the table, and the bilge area under the main salon full of water with no way to get it out. It was rain water that was in the boat for a long long time. Once I figured that out, I had to pump out the main bilge. Problem was, there is no access. I cut a hole in the tabbing at the aft end of the bilge and pumped all the water out. Problem solved.

If you need to see how I did this, ask here and I'll get the photos and info to you.

Edited by - on

Justin
Admiral

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502 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2008 : 10:53:21

I had the exact same experience as Happy D. It would be nice if we had easier access to the lowest part of our dinette interior bilges.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2008 : 11:27:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 ...We expect they sat her too hard onto the keel...it was an easy enough repair and has been dry ever since.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sounds likely... The swing keel should never support the boat--the boat should be put on stands (or on trailer bunks) and then the keel should be lowered at least slightly onto a rest, to take some stress of the hull. The boat should never be set down on the keel as a fin or wing would be. I'd be sure to instruct the yard guys on that--it's not what they're used to.

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