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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Cabin sole - 1978 Catalina25

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tzk53s
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/24/2002 : 15:01:44

Hi,
I'm looking for help from anyone who has some knowledge as to the area derectly under the cabin sole. Specifically between the floor and outer skin of the boat. Seems that there is about a two inch space here between this shell and the hull that bafels me as to how it connects with the rest of the boat. This area on my just purchased boat had considerable water (about 10 gallons) that was contributing to high moisture inside the cabin. Also all of the hidden lockers under the cushions (traditional interior) had water up to a depth of about 8 inches that had been there for who knows how long as the boat had not been used for 2 years and was in outside storage, which is the reason for the mold. After vacuuming out the water from the lockers it continued to weep out and collect in the locker bottoms and near the midcabin head area. I eventually drilled a 3 inch hole through the lowest point of the floor at the mid-cabin area estimated to be lowest in boat and found the source of the hidden water. The hull is under the floor at this point about two inches. The material of the floor appears to be solid epoxy resin, no glass or wood. This is where I will mount a bilge pump. The question is: Are the various locker compartments supposed to communicate with each other by drilling holes at the lowest point so water can get to the bilge? Otherwise how does normal condensation get "out" of these areas? They are dead-ends as far as once water gets into them. At least on my boat they are. Is this something that should have been modified a long time ago? There are two access covers in the dinette floor to the swing keel "hump" but these are not the lowest point. That point is forward and midships near the head under the floor where I drilled the hole. There was a pump here but it did not extend down into this hidden area thus there was always a source for moisture to stay in the boat and create mold. This is my first keel boat so any help would be appreciated. I read the postings concerning the bilge pump questions and decided that the one pump I had was not enough. Jim

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Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2002 : 20:41:08

Howdy, Jim

I don't think I can help you any, but I can commiserate with you and share in your concerns. I recently bought a 79 swingkeel dinette model and want to install effective bilge pumps. I too noticed that the dinette lockers do not "communicate" with any other portion of the boat. That worries me, because there are signs of seepage in the aft locker, and the previous owner felt the need to install a dedicated bilge pump there (only one in the boat). The forward locker has been crudely patched several times in the area of the keel trunk, so I assume the keel cable broke at some point and damaged it. It also has several old, suspicious-looking thru-hulls in it, so naturally I want it to be pumpable.

Someone also drilled a 2" diameter hole in the cabin sole in the head area just forward of the compression post. The bilge was full of water when I bought the boat in Florida, and when I got it home, I found I had my very own mosquito swamp! It took lots of spray, and some larva-killing "donuts" to end that problem. The long-term problem persists, however-- there is a monster leak through the forward two bolts of the mast step. The hole in the floor must have been drilled to let all that rain drain into the bilge. Then it just hangs out there, with no place else to go.

So come on, all you old salts, what is the solution? How do we go about creating a unified, efficient, easily bailed bilge? It's a safety concern that owners must have addressed, since Catalina apparently didn't think it through.

Randall

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Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2002 : 00:29:46

Jim & Randall,

The unmodified hull liner forms sort of an inner tub, up to the bottom of the galley cabinet cutouts. This makes it possible for an enormous amount of water to be hidden down there, as you have discovered.

Here's what I did about interconnecting the bilge compartments, and water sloshing around in general, inside my 1979 C-25 (swing keel, dinette, outboard). (Oh no, here it comes. Another pedantic lecture from Mr. Overkill!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)

Starting from the bow:

Sealed inside of anchor locker to hull, enlarged anchor locker drain to 1/2"SCH40 PVC.

Sealed V-berth locker to height of berth shelf, installed 3/4" PVC drain w/removable plug at low point to under head sole.

Drilled 3/8" hole in head sole at low point into bilge.

Retabbed liner to hull under dinette seats, up to level of seat platforms. Installed 1-1/4" PVC drain hole w/removable plug from forward dinette compartment (at low point next to trunk) to under dinette foot well. In the aft dinette seat locker, installed a section of 1-1/4"SCH40 PVC along side the trunk with a T-fitting in the middle of its length. The leg of the T facing outboard, with a removable plug. This connects the area under the dinette foot well to the area under the galley sole.

When redoing the hull-to-liner tabbing under the galley and under the stairs, I left large gaps next to the swing keel trunk. This is so that bilge water could slosh either forward on the starboard side to my small automatic pump and the strum box of the manual pump, or slosh aft to the large damage control pump near the aft end of the keel trunk. I'll assume you've seen my resent post about [url="http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1888"]bilge pumps[/url].<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Drilled 3/8" hole in galley sole at low point into bilge.
Drilled 3/8" hole in center isle sole at low point into bilge.
Drilled 3/8" hole at sagging spot near base of stairs into bilge.
In other words, all potential puddles on the cabin sole drain into the bilge.

The point of the complex sounding system of PVC plugs is to have the option of isolating those compartments from the rest of the bilge. Normally the plugs are left closed. That way, if something gets spilled in one of those lockers, the resulting mess is contained in an accessable area for cleanup. (The holding tank, for instance, is under the V-berth) On the other hand, if one of those lockers has bilge water that needs pumping, it can be drained into the common bilge by pulling that locker's PVC plug.

Also, once you get all your rain water leaks fixed, I think you'll find a whole lot less water in the bilge to worry about. But chasing rain leaks is a whole nother topic.

I hope at least some of this has helped, and not just muddied the bilge waters!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 09/26/2002 00:35:12

Edited by - on

tzk53s
1st Mate

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USA
33 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2002 : 11:50:01

Leon,
Thanks for the information. I am sure that Randall will also find this derection helpfull as well. Tis a good thing to here that someone else has already come upon this design anomally and taken action. What you have already done I was thinking logically should be done but could not for the life of me understand why on a 24 year old boat nobody had taken the initiative to do. Soooo, therefore I solicited the input from folks ( like yourself) who have the experience with this model in case I am missing some boneheaded obvious reason as to why the interior was designed this way. Thank you for confirming that: #1)This needs to be taken care of. #2)Providing a logical course of action. I like the idea of putting plugs in each of the locker areas for optional draining. Also, your idea of putting the head holding tank under the V-berth is interesting. My wife will spend more time on the boat if I have a more conventionally functional head ( this means electric ). Did you find a holding tank that conforms to the "V" bottom of this area? I would hate to use what little space I do have under the dinette seats. ( Yes, I do want my wife, and kids, along for some sails) Another thing you mentioned also made sense. I too noticed the anchor locker drain to be enemic. When you drilled out this area what size hole did you make and how did you bed the bigger size PVC pipe into the hole?
Thanks for all your input. I am a Great Lakes (Lake Huron, Port Huron area) sailor and love the trailerability of this boat. With a fullsize GM utility vehicle ( Yukon ) you do not hardly notice the boat back there.
Jim Ethington

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/26/2002 : 16:26:04

Jim Ethington

I'm glad you found some of my comments helpful. Here are answers to your follow on questions:

Re: "Did you find a holding tank that conforms to the "V" bottom of this area?" Yes, the Raritan #16B373 is an excellent fit. It is sort of oddly pyramid shaped and holds 16gals. Shoved all the way forward in the bow, its aft end is forward of the locker hatch cover, and still has several inches of space above it for plumbing. Considering the price of these tanks, don't take my word for this. Get a Raritan catalog (which has drawings with dimensions), make a mock-up out of carboard and duct tape, verify the fit, then place your order.

As for holding tank plumbing, I had Raritan install:<ul><li>Two 1" vent lines in the top of the tank on centerline (which are plumbed to thru-hulls just below the whale eye lights).</li>
<li>A 1-1/2" inlet centered at the top of the aft face of the tank.</li>
<li>A 1-1/2" discharge centered at the bottom of the aft face of the tank.</li>
<li>A 3" or 4" Beckson access port centered on the top of at the aft edge of the tank.</li>
</ul>Some would reccommend that all holes in the tank be in the top surface (including discharge, with a slash cut dip tube to lowest point), and I wouldn't argue against that method. I did what made sense to me at the time.

There is of course more to installing a marine head than that, but for a "Cabin sole - 1978 Catalina25" thread, I think I'm far enough off topic already!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Re: "anchor locker drain ... what size hole did you make?" Just a tiny bit larger than the outside diameter of the new PVC drain pipe. I probably used a 3/4" or so twist drill, followed by a small drum sander for final fitting.

Re: "how did you bed the bigger size PVC pipe into the hole?" As I recall, I left the PVC pipe about 3/8" long on each end. Leaving the pipe long on the outside helps keep the drainage from drooling down the stem and leaving rust stains. Leaving it long on the inside gives you something to filet to. In the anchor locker, I bedded the new pipe to the well sanded fiberglass with epoxy mush. Outside, I think I used 3M 5200 or similar. Once that sealant had cured hard, I carved it to a nice filet with a razor knife and/or rat tail file, and "painted" it with matching gelcoat. Those choices were based mostly on what goo I was messing around with at the time. (I was doing a lot of refurb. work in parallel, involving several different sealants.) Other bedding methods would of course work just as well.

I hope that helps.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

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