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Help! My boat is heelin gtoo much when I reef.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/03/2009 : 16:12:40

Let's say I posted a pic on here that showed my boat heeling and a reef in my sail. How would you tell me to adjust the reef to lessen the degree of heel.

While we're at it, If I had a loose footed sail, would I tie the lines to gather the sail up around the boom, or just around the excess sailcloth?

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

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Edited by - Prospector on 02/03/2009 17:09:47

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 16:47:19

Alittle more info would help. What wind speed? How much heel? Any round-ups? What head sail are you using?
With a reefed loose-footed main you tie the reefing ties around the surplus sail, NOT around the boom - you still maintain the loose foot with no danger of damage to the sail.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 17:11:35

It looks almost exactly like this (only with a better looking skipper)

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/03/2009 : 18:55:33

That photo shows just about the right amount of heel, but let me point out some things:

(1) the sail could be a lot flatter. Tighten halyard.
(2) the traveller is centered, to reduce heel, traveller down
(3) reduce to a smaller jib. The 110 and a single reef is good to about 30 knots.
(4) here's the biggie, when you are sailing upwind in big wind the boat wants to round up in a gust, right? Let her go (partway). You'll make a ton of room to windward, the boat will heel less
(5) if it's too much, and already travelled down, dump the main in the gusts. Known as the "fisherman's reef".
(6) still too much, put in the 2nd reef.
(7) get some weight on the weather rail!
(8) get the jib off her (I believe) or get the main down (others recommend). In a real blow offshore I have more control over the main and prefer the jib down. Flying just the jib can also make steering the boat tough as the bow gets blown off the wind.

In the C25 the boat is quite safe at 35 degrees to 40 degrees of heel (you have an inclonometer, right?). She will round up after 45, for sure at 50 degrees. Around 45 degrees you will start to develop tremendous weather helm. The net result will be you will hear a roar like a waterfall off the rudder.

That photo ain't nothing - 10 knots of wind, 15 - 20 degrees of heel?

This is heel.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 08:36:53

In the top photo, I'd like to see more slack in the topping lift.

Edited by - on

millermg
Navigator

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Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 09:15:42

That's not much heel for upwind sailing. But as said, 2/3rds of the drive of your sails is from the head sail- so reducing canvas there will make more of a difference.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 09:26:09

All good stuff... I was thinking the same about the topping lift... The boom hangs on the topping lift as you're setting the reef, but should be lifted off it by the halyard after you set the clew (or the TL should be eased). An advantage of two-line reefing (over single) is that you can tighten the tack first, to protect your slugs, and then tighten the clew. That way you can get it flatter without breaking slugs. With a loose foot, I'm thinking two lines might be more important--I never had that.

I'm one of the "genny-alone" proponents Jim alludes to--I preferred it on the blustery, off-shore-wind days with frequent, big gusts. Not only is the C-25 faster on the headsail alone than on main alone, it generates less heel because the center-of-effort (CE) is lower. With the car set back further than normal, you flatten the bottom of the sail and let the top twist off--both reduce heel further. It may seem paradoxical, but a larger (130 in my case) genny will give you better balance than a smaller (110 or less) jib, because the CE is further aft. With a full rig, I had light weather helm. On 130 alone, the helm was just about dead neutral (not my preference, but manageable)--it felt a little weird. I couldn't point quite as high, but higher than one might guess, and she tacked fairly well. The main is easier to dump in a gust, but the genny is less likely to need it, and could be rolled up a little if appropriate. You could feel a gust hit, but the heel didn't change much.

We used the genny alone mostly when "sailing to nowhere" so a hard beat was generally not necessary. I must admit, however, that we almost never sailed (make that never) in the 30-knot conditions Jim B. revels in! And of course nothing I'm saying here applies to racing.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/04/2009 09:33:00

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 09:31:44

Dave - would your feelings about Genny alone vs Main alone change if you didn't have roller reefing?

Edited by - Prospector on 02/04/2009 09:32:08

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 09:36:38

Good question... On windy days, the roller sure made sailing easier--pull one string and we're sailing, pull another and we're not! I don't remember ever reducing the genny when we were using it alone--we never needed to. The full sail was happy in 15-20+. We did reduce it some times to de-power the boat with the main up (instead of reefing the main) just because it was a simple solution in a sudden blow--not because it was ideal.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/04/2009 09:37:59

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 14:26:00

Re: reef job in first photo - this was the first time I tried reefing this sail (I know that should be one of the first things you learn to do on a new boat, but then i'm the guy that wanted to remove the lifelines too, so there you go)-- anyway all we have on the end of the boom is a cleat. What I did was undo the outhaul from the cleat, run it through the reefing grommet and back down to the cleat. Is this how it supposed to work or is there some hardware missing? I think I could have had it tighter by pointing into the wind better and tightening it down, so probably not a good effort. The ties along the boom were actually pretty loose. The topping lift I need to check, I didn't think it was tight enough to hold it up, but maybe. I'll have to say in the breeze, and it wasn't taht strong, I was struggling with that outhaul/reef line so there must be a better system.

Edited by - on

Douglas
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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 14:31:04

Let the main sheet out more. Use the boom vang to flaten the sail. Put in another reef. Sail closer to the wind.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 15:22:04

Steve (Merrick): Here's a picture of a standard 2-line reefing system, taken from the C-25 Owner's Manual (in the Manuals & Brochures section...

The cheek-block on the boom is positioned to give the proper angle down from the clew, such that the sail is pulled down as well as out. (I don't agree with its apparent position in this drawing--I think it should be slightly aft of the reef clew--others can correct me.) It also feeds the line parallel to the cleat, which is important for not ripping the cleat off the boom. The standard outhaul will not pull the reef clew down well enough to tension the leach. You might need to add a few items: a pad-eye on one side of the boom, a cheek block on the other, and maybe another cleat.

Some people lead the two lines to the mast, then down to turning blocks, out to a "deck organizer", and back to rope clutches on the cabin-top by the cockpit. If the main halyard is led back the same way, reefing can be done easily without going to the mast and the boom can be well away from the cockpit to luff the sail while you continue sailing on your jib.

You are right to not tie the sail down tightly with the reef ties--the grommets for them are not intended to take extreme strain. As noted earlier, if the sail is loose-footed, don't run those ties around the boom--just around the gathered-up sail and above the boom.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/04/2009 15:23:08

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 15:36:40

Dang Dave, you just added ANOTHER project to my winter list. I plan to have my radio hooked up right by the end of this week though... That at least makes room on the list.

EDITED for attrocious typing.

Edited by - Prospector on 02/04/2009 16:13:19

John Russell
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Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 15:46:27

Dave's right yet again. The drawing is a bit misleading. the cheek block should place such that the line leading down from the reefing clew is at least viertical or, better, leading a bit aft in order to double as an outhaul.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 16:07:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Dave - would your feelings about Genny alone vs Main alone change if you didn't have roller reefing?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As to reducing heel, when my wife is aboard sailing flat is a way of life. One of the easiest things I do to accomplish this is, I don't sail tight to the wind. Just ease off a bit and enjoy the ride. On windier days by myself, I'll just head out on a close reach then turn around and close reach back.

Like Dave, I, too, am a genoa only sailor. A few years ago on a somewhat breezy day, I experimented with sailing with main only then genoa alone, and found that under genoa alone, the boat sailed surprising well on all points of sail. Pointing ability dropped a little bit, but nothing to write home about, and speed under genoa alone was pretty decent, only dropping a half knot or so. As a matter of fact, my top ten speeds attained were probably reached under genoa alone.

Sailing under main alone was a completely different story. My top speed going to weather was reduced by about 60% to maybe 1.5-2kts and pointing ability was drastically reduced. Going to weather in the rather stiff breeze, I had a hard time generating enough boatspeed to allow me to tack through the wind.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 17:51:31

I have limited experience sailing our 250 on just the jib, but certainly in a nice wind, maybe 10 knots or thereabouts, I can hit nearly hull speed with our 110 up, and Rita can snooze w/o fear of heeling too much. I haven't had the opportunity to try to point on the headsail alone, but hope to do so this season.

Sailing on the main alone isn't anywhere near as easy.

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 18:45:50

I believe, as John indicates, that a cheek block that is toward the end of the boom is helpful. When reefing, it will draw the sail aft, and make the sail flatter; thus, giving shape to the sail.

It is preferred to set the tack reef line first when using a two line reefing system - to prevent strain on sail slugs: then set the reef line at the clew.

Deric

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 19:22:19

Dave I figured there should be more to it. Interesting that this old boat has never had the proper reefing set up. I have a question on adding the hardware to the boom, can you just drill the appropriate size hole and use sheet metal screws or should they be tapped out?

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 19:23:53

So, If I have it right, the sequence would be 1) lift the boom with the topping lift, 2) Lower the main a couple feet, 3) tighten the reef line at the mast, 4) tighten the reef line on the boom and finally tighten the main halyard?

Edited by - on

Merrick
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Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 19:27:36

Also I see the outhaul line in the picture is just tied off. Do you do it like this or run it also to a (another?)cleat where you can tighten or loosen it?

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
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Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 19:34:07

another thing is I have a hook on each side of the boom gooseneck. the reefing grommet at the tack is on a little tab and doesn't go through the sail, so I just lowered the sail till I could hook it and tightened it up again. Seems pretty simple and no line needed, right?

Edited by - on

frog0911
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Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 20:25:19

Ed, if you are reefing on the fly and want a numbers drill item 1 should be traveler down, 2 mainsheet eased (if you don,t you will not be able to raise the boom with the topping lift). Then pick up your number 1 and so on. Then after tightening the main, loosen the topping lift and sheet in the main. That is the routine I follow when reefing on the fly.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 02/04/2009 : 20:50:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I haven't had the opportunity to try to point on the headsail alone, but hope to do so this season.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The 250 might not do quite as well as the C-25, due to the C-250's mast being further forward, which puts the CE of the jib further forward, perhaps inducing lee helm.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have a question on adding the hardware to the boom, can you just drill the appropriate size hole and use sheet metal screws or should they be tapped out?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've used self-tapping screws. For anything that will be removed (like mast gate plates), I tapped for machine screws. Either way, use something like Nevrseize on the screws to minimize galvanic corrosion.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So, If I have it right, the sequence would be 1) lift the boom with the topping lift, 2) Lower the main a couple feet, 3) tighten the reef line at the mast, 4) tighten the reef line on the boom and finally tighten the main halyard?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You can probably skip step 1 if your topping lift is set to go slack with the sail up, but hold the boom as you drop the sail. The same should work when reefing--easing the halyard will drop the boom onto the lift, and re-tensioning it should lift it off and slacken the lift.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Also I see the outhaul line in the picture is just tied off. Do you do it like this or run it also to a (another?)cleat where you can tighten or loosen it?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Generally with a bolt-rope-footed main, you can (or at least I did) tension it, tie it off, and forget it (unless you're trailering--then a cleat might be worthwhile). I looped it around so it had 3x1 purchase. With a loose-footed main, you'll want add blocks for a multi-part (like 4x1) outhaul that can be adjusted and cleated to adjust sail shape for the wind. (You can do a little of that with a bolt-rope, but very little.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/04/2009 21:29:12

Merrick
Navigator

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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 03:23:02

Actually the main in the photo is not loose-footed. (just sloppy)

Edited by - on

Merrick
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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 04:02:32

Thanks Prospector for starting this thread. Clarified and lot of questions I've had. Glad I could provide a good "how not to" photo

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 05:27:02

Steve,

I once heard that the definition of an expert is one that knows all the mistakes. We are all either experts or becoming experts.

Sail on, Bud!

Deric

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