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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

How to go fast upwind in heavy weather

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jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/03/2009 : 18:18:24

I have sailed my 250WK a couple of times in winds of 15 to 25 mph winds and have been disappointed in my slow progress to windward. My boat speed has been less than 2.5 knots. I tried just a first reefed mainsail with the genoa not deployed and then in addition to being slow had difficulty getting across the wind when tacking which nearly caused me to run aground. I tried just the genoa and while handling was much easier I still didn't get the speed I expected. I've tried both sails up and had excessive heeling and sideslipping.

What is the best sail arrangement to get the most upwind performance in a strong wind ?

Jim Butler

Edited by - jbkayaker on 04/03/2009 18:20:00

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2009 : 20:08:04

We bought a 70% storm jib. We haven't had an opportunity to test it in high winds yet, but we were able to point into the wind fairly well with it and a double reef in the main.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 08:49:10

JB... Working to weather when the wind is blowing hard, I've had best success under double reefed main and no headsail. One does need 3-4 kts to have enough momentum to carry smoothly through a tack.

The name of the game is to limit sail plan drag. Harden the halyard well and make sure that the reefing lines are drawing the clew aft well so that the foot is tight.

Foot off a little to increase boat speed prior to the tack.

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 10:40:44

A couple of years ago I had the second set of reef points installed on the main sail and purchased an IDA rudder. I never could sail to windward easily without the second set of reef points on my C 250. The IDA rudder made another big improvement in handling in moderate wind. With the original series 1 rudder and only one reef point there
was always a concern of roundup. JMTCW

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 18:24:40

David G.
With my roller furled 135% genoa is there a convenient way to deploy a 70% storm jib ?

Arlyn,
I'll try the 2nd reef next time.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 21:02:19

Don't forget the "iron genny."

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 04/04/2009 : 21:29:24

Yep, the outboard motor was what I used to avoid going aground when I could not tack and didn't have room to jibe.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 21:29:00

Well, it wasn't strong winds but today we were out in 10 MPH wind going to the wind with both the main and 135 genny fully deployed. We were going 5.3 Knots and heeling 20 degrees.

I wonder, do you have extra weight in the bow?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/05/2009 : 21:35:36

James,
I'm not sure how you'd go about hanking on a storm jib over a furled jib. I know ATN makes some sort of sleeve you can do it with, but I think you have to buy their whole system (not sure). I think it's called a "Gale Sail"?

We've also used the iron jenny when we couldn't make any way to weather. That was the same day we decided to get the storm jib. To be honest, I wasn't sure we were going to keep the boat after that trip. Rita was beyond terrified, we couldn't get a reef in the main (rigged wrong & inexperience). The engine constantly cavitated if I moved forward (short steep chop right on our nose), so she had to do the foredeck work to get the sails in. We learned a lot of scary lessons that day. After she decided that she'd actually get on the boat again, we spent time learning how to reef the boat, rigged the second reef (and fixed the first), bought dual lanyards for both our PFDs, added carabiners to them as well so we can tie off not only horizontally, but also to the spinnaker halyard (can't fall off the boat if you can't fall period). We've also gotten a larger engine on a mount to get it deeper in the water.

The plus to all this? We've never had to use any of the stuff since we got it. We always attach our lanyards when working on the foredeck, and I can go up there now & she can drive, and the engine stays in the water.

Edited by - delliottg on 04/05/2009 21:43:41

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 12:34:44

NautiDuck
I have about 150 pounds of river pebbles in bags under the V-berth.

David G.
I was hoping that your storm jib would be just a three point connection deal so that the spinnaker halyard and one bottom forestay or stem attachment plus the jib sheets would be all that's needed to deploy it. It would be interesting to try that with a small jib. I expect that it would not point upwind very well.

I have a self inflating PFD with a lifting harness built in. It's comfortable so I wear it almost all the time on the sailboat. If I fall overboard in heavy weather and chilly water I worry that my inexperienced crew-members will take a long time to get back to me. So a lanyard is an excellent idea.

One thing I have resolved to do is leave the outboard down, in Neutral, and all ready to start when conditions are challenging. It's electric start so just a button push and whoever is driving has power.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 13:31:52

I do exactly that with my outboard for that same reason. Rita knows how to do everything, but she's not skilled at it. I don't want there to be any impediments to her getting the boat back to me if I should go overboard. I don't mind sacrificing a half knot or whatever it is to the outboard's drag in the water.

We intend to run some MOB drills this year with her in charge so she learns how. Toss a cushion overboard & go get it.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 14:25:43

JB, we have 275lbs of weight added to the bow. I was just wondering if the nose wasn't getting enough bite in the water to help keep you on track.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 15:50:52

Pointing as high as you can and hardening the sheets to the max is likely not make the best progress upwind in a Catalina. Fall off a few degrees, harden the vang, ease the mainsheet a little (traveler down), and move your jib cars back so the lower part of the jib is flattened and the top can twist off. All of this should give you better speed, which in turn will reduce leeway, which in turn will give you better upwind progress (VMG--Velocity Made Good). A GPS navigating toward a waypoint dead upwind can help you find the sweet-spot of course and trim that gives you the highest VMG. Or you can just feel it.

I'm sure C-250 is different from the C-25, but I found that the C-25 was a side-slipping pig beating under main alone. Some amount of jib was critical to windward performance. I reduced or eliminated the main before reducing the 130 in heavy air, and just footed off and eased the sheets a little for speed and less leeway. And I, too, kept the engine down and ready in some conditions.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/06/2009 16:00:32

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 16:09:47

Here's a link to the [url="http://www.atninc.com/gale.html"]ATN Gale Sail[/url].

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 : 14:47:35

The Gale Sail looks like a very good option. But at $515 it will have to go below several other items on my wish list.

Maybe I need more pebbles in the bow. And I'll have to try Dave Bristle's approach of shortening the main before the genoa too.

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2009 : 12:37:42

I had similar problems in the wing keel I purchased on November 2, 2008, when I took it out on Nov. 12 in heavy seas. I did not have any ballast in the bow and my reefing lines were jammed so I was unable to flatten the main very well. I was having difficulty making headway with my 150 jenny reduced to 115-125 because I was overpowered. I rolled up the jenny but now the best I could manage was a beam reach. Winds were gusting in excess of 27 knots however, and the general sailing advice I got from veterans of Buzzards Bay, was to use extreme caution in wind conditions in excess of the hull length. Remembering this, I doused the main and motored home, frustrated but safe.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2009 : 13:14:17

I was down at my local chandlery, Bacon & Associates, in Annapolis and they happen to have an ATN Gale Sail up on the wall, and I asked how much it cost. A 30 sq. ft. Gale Sail is $445. That's a bit of a bargain.

I almost always use my hank-on 60% storm jib when the wind is gusting over 25. My C-25 gets slow and peaceful with a reefed main.
I don't know how easy it is to roll up your jib after the wind pipes up to 25, 30 or 35 knots.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2009 : 17:45:18

Here is a court decision against Bacon Sails for failing to remit money for sails they sold on consignment.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4183/is_20040203/ai_n10059574/

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/14/2009 : 18:59:20

That's a surprise!

Well, I guess I may have to bring my lawyer next time I go shopping for a $5 clam cleat or two!

I think Bacon & Associates is generally well respected, and I certainly think it's a nice place to find bargains on new and used sailboat equipment.

Edited by - on

Just Add Water
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2009 : 07:19:00

I have had the same problem upwind in heavy air. Couldn't figure it out until I tried shortening the main first in order to minimize the excruciating weather helm.

As the wind picks up, try this.

1. Full Sail
2. Full genoa, one reef
3. Full genoa, two reefs. You have to rig reef ties in your 2nd reef crigles-reef ties in the foot are optional. Try them, you might like them.
3. No main, full genoa at 20 kts.
4. No mail, half genoa for 25+ kts.

I can get 4-5 kts 4.5 pts off the wind using half a gennie and no main. I also raked the mast as far forward as she'll go with the current stock turnbuckle. Above 30 kts? Above 30 kts? drop the sails and start the motor!

Catalina 250 is an absolute slug with no head sail and main only. Don't bother unless you want to go sideways.

Kevin Crothers
s/v Just Add Water
White Bear Lake, MN

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2009 : 08:43:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 David G.
With my roller furled 135% genoa is there a convenient way to deploy a 70% storm jib ?

Arlyn,
I'll try the 2nd reef next time.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Make your 135% a 100% or less by rolling it to the right shape and locking it off.
Before you roll it in crank down on the backstay so you have 3” of sag in the headstay or less.
My 150 has marks on the foot for 135% & and 100%.
With a single reef (I only have one) and headsail at 100% I have hit my best speeds, 6.5+, with this configuration usually at 20 - 25 knots. Above that I look like a squirrel on uppers but it can be a fun ride.

I don’t shorten the headsail or reef till about 16-18 knots.
Below 17, I crank the back stay and flatten the main with the outhaul and vang.
Keep your hand on the mainsheet and/or the traveler to dump air in the puffs so you are not over powered and lose headway.
BTW – My rule is to put on a PFD and clip in when I reef. Safety first.

Edited by - Peregrine on 05/14/2009 08:46:06

Just Add Water
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2009 : 11:12:46

Sounds good Peregrine, but that hasn't worked for me. I get awful weather helm and round up hard--even with 2 reefs! I realize I can dump the main and I do, but that really isn't a very comfortable sail. When you crank your backstay, I assume you have a different or a custom rig. My 250's backstay runs from the masthead to the deck on the portside of the helm seat. Turnbuckle only. It's a full mast rig so putting a bow in the mast is tough.

Suggestions?

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2009 : 18:57:02

Forward progress is tough in high winds. I have a WK and several hundred Lbs. of weight in the bow (the weight really helps pointing). Keep the Jib up and furl it to 100 or 90 in higher winds. I usually keep the main fully up unless I'm in a hurricane! Sail way off wind to keep your speed up so you can tack and tack quickly.

Heeling is not a bad thing, I know many here talk as if healing is somehow bad for the boat. It is not something you want to expose first time passengers with, but can be fun and exciting when you get use to it and learn to control it. Without the weight in the bow, my boat showed a lot of squirrelyness and rounded up when heeled over too far. After adding the weight, it became well balanced and a lot of fun on it's side! Some here say that the 250 is not as fast on it's side. I have not been able to get more speed out of her than when we are as far over as we can get with crew as far windward as they can get. The GPS knotmeter doesn't lie.

I've sailed in very heavy weather single handed and it can be a handful. I've also been hit by a 40-50 mph gust during a race and put the main in the water as I rounded up. The good news is, your boat will still float and "pops" up very quickly. The 250 is a very safe boat.

Life jackets come out as the wind rises . . . in the above incident, I almost launched 2 crew members and one was the Admiral! She likes heeling the boat even more than I do!

I guess my advise is let her go over a bit more as you sail off wind and let your speed rise. It will be easier to sail when your moving faster. Unfortunately, you still do not make as much progess to your destination, just tack a lot!

Edited by - Turk on 05/14/2009 18:58:52

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