Association Forum - Do the 25' Catalinas have positive floatation

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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Do the 25' Catalinas have positive floatation

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HeelinPatrick
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/17/2009 : 13:37:51

A buddy of mine had a C22, and he said it had foam blocks or cells that would keep it afloat in the event of a capsize or catastrophic failure. Do any of the bigger Catalinas have it, particularly the C25's? I couldn't find anything on this when searching the forum.

Patrick Moran
1981 SR/SK w/trailer
#2303 - "Chili Mas"
Lincoln, NE

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 13:41:29

NO.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 13:43:15

...and our member, Derek Crawford, might argue about the C-22.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 13:46:07

My 1986 C22 did not have positive flotation. Some people add foam for flotation but it takes up all of the storage space so is not practical for most people.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 14:21:22

I have always been convinced that if I am caught in conditions that overcome the self-righting abilities of th eboat, I am in some serious trouble. I think that I can only come up with 3 ways for our baots to go down. Others should feel free to chime in...

1. Through hull failure. - Sunny day drinking margaritas and you notice the floor of the boat is wetter than it should be. Take your tapered plug and hammer it into the hole, then head for someplace where you can do a repair in a hurry.

2. Hatches open in inclement weather - I have never managed to bury the nose of Iris, but I've come close. Most waves that break over the bow dump way back in the cockpit, however; if you left the V-Berth hatch open while pounding to weather in heavy seas, or had no hatch boards in while running before a storm, a wave could break on the bow or poop you and fill the cockpit. That could put a load of water inside the boat and cause it to founder. It would take a lot of water though.

3. The "quick-release pop-top" - Similar to the hatches, but while pounding through the storm, the pop-top dogs let go, and the top is no longer anchored to the boat. With gas struts on (as we now have on Iris) the top would open on the next wave, and thats a lot of space for flying water to fill.

I do not list a hull breach here. I also do not list losing your keel. I am convinced that it would be near impossible for our hull to be "holed" by hitting a stationary object. Now if a cigar boat rammed you, then a hull breach would be likely. I check our keel boats regularly.

Luckily, our forums have addressed all of the "likely scenarios" above, and we've all taken the steps to ensure that we have extra dogs on our pop-tops, have the hatches battened down, and have tapered plugs at our through hulls, so really even if the boat doesn't have positive flotation, I'm not too worried about it since I'm not planning on sinking it.

If the boat did go down, all of my crew will have on their PFD's, the cockpit cusions float, and our beer coolers float. The way I see it, we'd be fine until the beer ran out.

Edited by - Prospector on 04/17/2009 14:23:44

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 14:40:41

22s sink just as fast as 25s

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Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
855 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 15:19:44

This brings up an interesting problem.
If you wanted to add flotation you could put it under the v-berth and the seats.
In the event you capsize, the positive flotation is under the v-berth.
Wouldn't that make it harder to right the ship?

But capsized and floating is better that righted and sunk?

Russ

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HeelinPatrick
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 04/17/2009 : 15:33:48

So, what's this about extra dogs on the pop top, you mean an extra set of the wing nuts and studs to make sure it stays down?

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Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 04:26:41

I'll add a caution here.

It has been stipulated among Catalina sailors, owners, and business owners in the know, that on old Catalina boats with the gate valve, glassed into the hull seacocks have failed, and could allow water to enter the hull. Imagine the boat under water in the slip and still tied to the dock. Solution: replace the valve through hull. (see below)

Here is a picture of one of those faulty devices:

Improved valve setup:

Deric

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 05:59:25

Deric brings up a good point about the older "to-hull" fittings--threaded bronze pipes in a mushroom of epoxy inside the hull, with a bare hole on the outside. These should be replaced with proper "thru-hulls" that have a flange on the exterior of the hull. Use the search function on "to-hull" for a ton of information, pictures, and experiences.

On "positive" flotation... In the parlance of boat builders, this means flotation positioned so that, if completely swamped, the boat will remain upright. In lightweight boats, that typically means up under the gunwales. With our 1500-1900 lb. keels, keeping it upright wouldn't be too difficult if you could put enough foam in there to offset 5000++ lbs, which would take around 100 cubic feet.

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 13:52:00

I remember reading that the MacGregor 26C and D models had positive flotation, accomplished by filling the various gaps between the hull and inner liner with that expanding two-part Urethane foam. Boston Whalers are done the same way. The reason this works on the MacGregor is that these are water ballast boats, so it doesn't take a huge volume of foam to keep the boat floating at the surface in the event of a hull breach. But for a Catalina 25, you are talking about floating a lead or cast iron keel that weighs 1500#. That would require at least 30 cubic feet of foam, figuring about 50 pounds of buoyancy per cubic foot. To float the entire boat, counting mast, outboard motor, hull - everything that's denser than water and thus negatively buoyant - I would hazard a guess that you would have to have somewhere between 70 and 100 cubic feet of foam. There's probably not that much dead volume in a Catalina 25 that you could fill with 2-part foam, so you would have to sacrifice a lot of storage space.

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5371 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 21:46:33

I've got a kayak whose holds are filled with float bags. I keep them inflated under the bow and stern hatches and when the boat capsizes and gets swamped, the float bags keep the boat buoyant.

I can imagine putting some kind of inflatable raft, weather balloons or rubber bladder inside the cabin that can be rapidly inflated by compressed air in a tank. Maybe even automatically. I wonder how large of a bladder you'd need? Is there a constant that defines how many pounds of buoyant force one cubic foot of air provides?

Has anybody ever seen anything like this anywhere?

I do recall a guy's father I knew of who had an older sailboat in a marina where the bilge flooded and the boat sunk at the dock. Divers used such a contraption along with an air compressor to raise the boat. It took them all day. Afterwards they got the boat repaired and cleaned up and they rehabilitated it.

Apparently such equipment exists. But the logistics of where you'd keep it stored in the boat and how you'd arrange the compressed air and valves are a little bit problematic.

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Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 04:38:12

Man, you better think this one through! What if it goes off and you're in the head!

Edited by - Turk on 04/20/2009 04:38:35

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 07:06:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Is there a constant that defines how many pounds of buoyant force one cubic foot of air provides?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think it's about 60-63 lbs.

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