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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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kickup rudder hold down

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essen48183
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USA
143 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/20/2009 : 13:29:38

The prior owner had (I think) modified the original hold down system for the rudder. There is a thin maybe 1/8" rope to raise it tied in a bowline through a hole in the trailing edge of the rudder. There is than a 5/16" bungee tied to that loop of 1/8 rope routed through a cheek block and up to a clam cleat. The hole in the rudder that the rudder pivots on is oversized.

There is no details provided in the manual regarding the rudder.

My question is twofold:

One: Is there a bushing supposed to be in the pivot?

Two: What was the factory setup of the raising/lowering lines? Further, has there been better mods than the bungee? In order to hold the rudder forward, it seems that there is so much tension on the bungee that there isn't much "spring left in it anyways.

Essen Davis
Trenton, MI

"Cornbread"
1995 Catalina 250, Water Ballast , Hull #161
http://gallery.me.com/essen#gallery

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2009 : 13:40:07

I have a nylon bolt holding the rudder down. This is what the PO had. I simply assumed that it will break away should the rudder have any significant impact with an obstruction. I never intend to "beach" my wing-keel boat so, I really don't need to lift the rudder otherwise.

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Arlyn Stewart
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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2009 : 14:55:54

Essen... The stock factory setup did not have a pull down function. I guess the method they intended was to hang off the stern and push down with foot.

Yes, there should be a bushing to mate the axle to the size of the hole in the rudder.

What you described as the pull down line with the bungee is the mod I offered many years ago. The bungee serves three purposes.
<ol type="1"><li>It provides a pull down line</li><li>It serves as the hold down for the rudder</li><li>It auto retracts the rudder following a grounding</li></ol id="1">

Keep in mind, this mod was in conjunction to the mod to rake the rudder forward slightly by removing some material from the rudder head frame. If that mod is done, a single quarter inch bungee will miraculously hold the rudder in the down position without problem. Without the mod to the rudder frame, I'm not sure the hold down will function fully because I think may depend upon a little forward rake to overcome the aft pressure of a rudder in either the straight down or slightly aft raked position.

The factory hold down rivet/detent system is abandoned by removing the rivets from the rudder and leaving the tensioning lever slightly loose.

[url="http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/rudderheadmods.html"]Rudder Head Mods[/url]

See also [url="http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/ruddermod.html"]Balancing the 2nd generation beaching rudder[/url]

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 05/20/2009 15:01:06

essen48183
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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2009 : 16:16:53

O.K. The rudder was modified by prior owner to your system. There is some forward rake. It looks exactly as above. I am missing a bushing, and I was tightening the handscrew down pretty tight to prevent the rudder from moving around easily. This made me need to pull REALLY hard on the bungee - eliminating the spring action of it. I get it now. Thanks for the advice, John and Arlyn.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/20/2009 : 19:17:23

On our C22's kick-up rudder, I drilled a 1/4" hole below the handle all the way through the side plates and the rudder, in the full down position, and inserted a short piece of 1/4" wooden dowel (just long enough to remove with pliers if I needed to). The dowel acted as a shear pin in case you ground but will hold the rudder in position for sailing. I kept several spare pieces on one of the shelves in the cabin for replacements.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 04:48:13

David, yes a pin can work well for a boat that is slipped or moored but doesn't work well on a trailered 250 with a 2nd generation beaching rudder because the rudder is too long to be down when launching and retrieving.

The other issue is that after a grounding, there is little steering control because it is very difficult to helm with a rudder kicked back whereas the bungee hold down automatically returns the rudder back down after a grounding.

It allows the skipper to navigate skinny water he otherwise would avoid.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 05/21/2009 : 08:40:56

We trailer sail the 22 since buying the 25. Actually, I had switched to the dowel method on the advice of a friend at a lake we were visiting for a regatta. I was using a quick release pull pin at the time. I had not pulled the pin and dragged the rudder a bit pulling out at the launch ramp and it actually bent the pull pin a little. My friend recommended replacing the pull pin with the dowel because it would break before damaging the rudder. I agree that the bungee method would allow for a quick bounce up and recovery after a grounding, but does it really keep the rudder fully down while sailing, especially in strong winds. I know from experience prior to using the pin that the rudder doesn't have to move much for steering to become more difficult.
I use a blade rudder on the 22 for racing.

Edited by - dmpilc on 05/21/2009 08:42:15

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 05/22/2009 : 08:02:19

When I raked the rudder forward to get some balance, it meant that the rivet/detent hold down system would no longer line up and work. It really hadn't worked well anyway so it was of little loss.

Needed in the rudder mods was a pull up line and thought was given to how to incorporate it and the hold down line. The first thought was to use a line where the bungee is and I was about to order an auto releasing cleat (a cleat designed to release at a certain load point). However, those cleats are a little pricey and I had a Cal cleat (made for truck beds) in my junk box and wondered if bungee would work because it would serve as an auto pull down as well as the hold down/pull down line. Like you, there were doubts it would work but it seemed worth a try.

At first, I three stranded the bungee simply because three strands would go through the Cal cleat and I believed max effort would be needed to hold the rudder fully down. Testing showed not a hint of the rudder moving from the full down position so just for grins, I started removing strands one at a time and discovered only one strand held the rudder in place even in very demanding conditions.

I think it has something to do with the rudder raked forward slightly. At any rate, the system works great. It provides a pull down line, a hold down line and auto return after grounding all the design goal requirements.

Edited by - on

Navy1
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USA
126 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2009 : 06:37:36

My 2004 C250 has a solid rudder, but I would like to someday get a kickup rudder, as I had on my C22. But I'm afraid to ask how much a kickup rudder will cost me for my 250. Any suggestions?

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 05/24/2009 : 12:20:28

Roger it looks like the price has risen...the IDA Kick up...available at idasailor.com is now $949.00. I bought one back when they were about $650.00, before they added the gas strut for keeping the rudder down and I love it!
Willy

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