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Capsize & drowing in PNW

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/06/2009 : 09:15:24

This happened yesterday up near Bellingham. Six people & a dog on an 18' boat. Four of them survived, two are presumed dead, and they found the dog dead inside the boat on the beach. None were wearing life jackets.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/590/story/938882.html?storylink=omni_popular

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor

Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --

Edited by - on

dave andersen
1st Mate

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85 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2009 : 10:27:32

Very unfortunate. Safety is a matter of respectfulness for the powers of nature. This looks like a lake boat with a centerboard
rather than a weighted keel. 6 on an 18ft boat is overloading.
Not wearing life vests is akin to not wearing seat belts -- there
should be a law. When the wind blew up dangerously, it would not have been a hard choice to sacrifice the boat and run it up on the shore.

I don't want to point my finger in the wake of this tragic event,
but we all need to mindful that sailing is not just harmless recreation: one needs to be well prepared for any condition.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2009 : 10:53:07

It sounds like they sailed from the island around midnight, so I wouldn't be overly surprised if alcohol played a factor, but maybe not. Sailing in Puget Sound is not something to be taken lightly, the water's much colder than you might expect. The news is saying that the women were in the water for at least two hours before swimming ashore, it's surprising they were able to even swim after being cold for that long.

The fact that it's been in the 80's & 90's for days on end might have played a part as well. They had PFD's on the boat but apparently no one wore them.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2009 : 10:55:16

Lucky that the women survived in that water. One of the guys was "fearless"... Very sad.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2009 : 18:08:34

How sad. Often it is said to stay with the boat but in this case that was not the right choice. Six people on a small boat, in the dead of night, in cold water, with no PFDs on is a tragedy waiting to happen. Anyone who thinks it is OK to simply carry PFDs on board should read this story and see the foolishness of that approach.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:51:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 How sad. Often it is said to stay with the boat but in this case that was not the right choice. Six people on a small boat, in the dead of night, in cold water, with no PFDs on is a tragedy waiting to happen. Anyone who thinks it is OK to simply carry PFDs on board should read this story and see the foolishness of that approach.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A handheld VHF and some flares could have changed the outcome. As soon as bad weather flared up the ditch bag should have been in the cockpit and PFD's put on if they weren't already. Sail reduced or eliminated and head to shore. Sadly anyone can BUY a boat.

sten

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 16:02:11

It is important for all of us to read stories like this but it sure is hard. Skippers kill.

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ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 04:17:00

I would give anything to know if this was a keel boat or a center board boat. I myself have taken to entertaining on my boat. So far have not had more than one other couple with small kids. This article makes me think twice though. What is the overload point for the c-250 Wk?

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 05:16:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ruachwrights
 I would give anything to know if this was a keel boat or a center board boat. I myself have taken to entertaining on my boat. So far have not had more than one other couple with small kids. This article makes me think twice though. What is the overload point for the c-250 Wk?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My guess is you are going to be fine with 8 people or more aboard. Different animal. Then again, I'm not familiar with the 250 and it's characteristics. I've put 7 on and it didn't seem to bump the waterline a bit on my C25. Handling was ok as well. But there was a lot of keel down there too. This was a case of wrong boat, wrong time.

sten
DPO Zephyr C25 fk/sr #3220
Lysistrata C&C 39 - St. Augustine

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 06:42:45

Our marina owner has a phrase..."beware the water, it's trying to kill you"...admittedly it's more than just a little cynical...but he's seen a lot over his years...unfortunately, all too often the potential threats and dangers are not considered by those in the leadership position.

Edited by - jerlim on 06/09/2009 06:44:52

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 08:07:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ruachwrights
 I would give anything to know if this was a keel boat or a center board boat. I myself have taken to entertaining on my boat. So far have not had more than one other couple with small kids. This article makes me think twice though. What is the overload point for the c-250 Wk?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">A few years ago, there was a news story of a C-25 (different boat, I know) on Lake Dillon in Colorado, with something like 13-14 people on it--midnight or later. It rolled over and quickly sank. I think it might have been under power, sails down. Libations were apparently involved...

My feeling for my C-25 SR-FK was that eight was the max for motoring or light air drifting--six for real sailing, partly because safety includes being able to handle the boat and deal with situations. Under sail, except for racing with experienced crew, everyone should be able to fit in the cockpit, and generally should stay there.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 09:06:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I would give anything to know if this was a keel boat or a center board boat. I myself have taken to entertaining on my boat. So far have not had more than one other couple with small kids. This article makes me think twice though. What is the overload point for the c-250 Wk?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It was a centerboard boat (if you search the original article you'll find pictures of the boat washed up on the shore).

We've had as many as six on our C-250 WK, but two of them were young girls. I'm not sure I'd want more than six adults on the boat, there simply isn't room for everyone to fit in the cockpit.

Edited by - delliottg on 06/09/2009 09:11:38

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 10:34:25

That boat does not look at all seaworthy to me.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 06/09/2009 10:41:24

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 12:36:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 That boat does not look at all seaworthy to me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ralph Nader it - unsafe at any speed other than a lake with light winds. Vessel design and construction matter.

sten

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 12:44:41

Wonder what the bumper stickers say actually. I can only make out one word... Sums it up. Failure is not an option.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 06/09/2009 12:46:01

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 13:42:56

I looked at the area in Google Earth--small island in a relatively small bay--not exactly big water, although cold. This can happen on an inland lake, particularly in a boat overloaded with half-gone people in uncertain weather at midnight.

I would submit that failure is always a possibility--it's preparation and sobriety to deal with it that isn't an option.

That one bumper sticker is telling...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/09/2009 13:47:32

millermg
Navigator

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159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 08:41:24

I'm guessing hypothermia may have played a role too. The water is still VERY cold up here this time of year, I wouldn't give them more than an hour in those conditions. Very sad.

Edited by - on

essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 10:49:32

sten, thought you'd enjoy:

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essen48183
Navigator

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USA
143 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 12:38:06

and the other one was a bit tougher to make out, but I think it is:

"It is a scientific fact "
"that scum rises to the top"

Edited by - on

johnsonp
Admiral

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USA
606 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 21:05:01

Seems a lot of problems are starting early this year.

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/6420ap_wa_overturned_canoe.html

paulj

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 21:18:32

Canoes and ferries don't mix well.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/12/2009 : 08:17:16

Very sad. I have seen quite a few people camping out of kayaks in the San Juans but don't recall seeing canoes. Canoes seem so much less stable to me. Cold water sure doesn't leave a lot of room for error or accidents.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/12/2009 08:17:45

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5408 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 20:39:39

Randy
I've taught both canoe and kayak safety courses with the US Power Squadron for about 5 years in Connecticut. Neither canoes nor sit-inside kayaks have any greater intrinsic stability, however self rescues can be effected in both using a paddle float with a little practice within 5-10 minutes, unless one become injured or incapacitated. Obviously, there are several ways you can become incapacitated.

The first sign of hypothermia is loss of manual dexterity, which can take place within 15 minutes in 45 degree water. At 50 degrees, dexterity is generally lost within 20-30 minutes. Obviously, without manual dexterity, you cannot get out of the water and back into the boat.

It is literally a race against time.

Much of the practical work on paddlesports and self rescues was developed in the PNW, among the contributors to SeaKayaker Magazine, including Matt and Cam Broze and David Burch.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 22:15:31

...why I bought a couple of sit-on-top kayaks. Much less for my guests to learn to be able to rescue themselves.

From my many years in both, I absolutely disagree that canoes have the same basic stability as kayaks--unless you're sitting on the bottom of the canoe, which makes paddling an exercise few are prepared for. Also, unlike a kayak, a canoe is designed to be paddled from one or both ends. With a single person, a canoe is victim to the winds against the other end. Canoes have no business in waters that have heavy waves or winds, except perhaps in the hands of true experts.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/15/2009 22:17:43

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 14:34:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 The first sign of hypothermia is loss of manual dexterity, which can take place within 15 minutes in 45 degree water. At 50 degrees, dexterity is generally lost within 20-30 minutes. Obviously, without manual dexterity, you cannot get out of the water and back into the boat.

It is literally a race against time.

Much of the practical work on paddlesports and self rescues was developed in the PNW, among the contributors to SeaKayaker Magazine, including Matt and Cam Broze and David Burch.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nice to see a reference to the Moitessier's of the sea kayaking world. I'd say 5 minutes is the max in 45 degree water. After that, the body does start to slow down and the ability to self rescue or even assist in your own rescue in a MOB situation becomes impaired. Body weight and whatnot makes this a variable, but for some the effects of hypothermia are almost immediate. The shock, hyperventilation, inhalation of water upon immersion and from waves. Sobering. I try to do MOB's in under 5 minutes and strive for under 3.

sten

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 18:00:30

I've fallen into Puget Sound once, stepping down into a dinghy without paying enough attention, much to the amusement of my friends. Rather than suffer further indignities by trying to climb back into the dinghy or up on deck, I opted to swim ashore, maybe 40 yards away. I'm a pretty good sized guy, with more insulation than I need, but I was pretty cold at the end of that swim. Not teeth chattering cold, but I was glad it was a pretty warm day. Hanging onto a capsized boat for a couple of hours when the water hasn't even had a chance to warm up from winter here, I think you'd have a hard time just flailing your arms attempting to swim. That the four women were able to make it ashore is nothing short of miraculous.

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