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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Cost of new Mainsail?

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MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/09/2009 : 04:48:26

Well, I got my first long look at the Mainsail on my "new to me" Catalina 25.
If I had to guess I'm thinking she is original. Looking at the plastic sliders, I felt
that if I took a big "puff" one would snap and blow out of the slot. At the end of every quarter, I get a bonus from my job (yes, even in this economy) and I'm thinking I'd like to use it on a new Mainsail. I plan on keeping the boat for at least 5-6 years, and do all lake sailing.
Speaking with a North Sail rep last night, he was talking about having a roach so large that it would rub the backstay every tack. A little too aggressive I think.

I'd like to get the most sail possible, without having to lower the main every time I come about. What say you? How about giving me some input, and then I think I'll go shopping.
Murphy

Edited by - MurphyPeoples on 06/09/2009 04:49:43

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 05:33:20

If you plan to race the boat, you'll love that big roach. If you plan to cruise, you probably won't. I had the first mainsail that North ever made for a Catalina 25, and I ordered it with a big roach and a racing shelf foot and flattening reef, and it was really fast. However, at first the roach hit the backstay every time I tacked or gybed, and I had to reach up and pull it past, and it was a nuisance. In time, the leech of the sail softened a little, and the roach slipped past the backstay with no coaxing. Being an avid racer, I was willing to put up with the minor inconvenience until the sail softened. My advice is to buy the kind of sail that is best suited to the kind of sailing you plan to do. If you think you might want to race, you'll be sorry you didn't get the big roach.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 06:22:07

The sail plan of the Catalina 25 is head sail driven so if you want to prioritize your sails you might want to think about buying a headsail first. Everyone has their own preferences for sails and I am one who considers the full batten, loose footed main the perfect sail on a Cat 25 because the battens make the sail handling so easy. As for performance nuances, I have always ascribed to the notion that until I can sail a perfect tactical race any speed magic in my sails is pointless. I err to the ease of ownership that full battens bring, that is not to say I did not pay attention to my sail trim, looking at photos of my boats taken by me or others show my sails were nearly always trimmed well. I found attention to trim on well mannered sails was the right formula for a C-25.
http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#gallery

Edited by - on

Tom Gauntt
Navigator

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204 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 06:27:23

Murphy,

I bought a new main this past winter (and a new furling jib, as well), so I've done some research into the low end of the new sail market. There is a world of wealth on this forum, so I'll let those folks talk about the cosmic properties of dacron vs. nylon vs. mylar vs. carbon and various sail characteristics like shelf, roach, loose foot, reef points, cunninghams, and batten choices. You can spend a LOT of money on sails, and some folks will drop a lot of cabbage for a half a knot. More power to them, but I am a serious budget sailor so my definition of value is probably different than others. If you plan on racing, the advice offered by those who race will be invaluable. I do not race, so keep that in mind when reading my comments.

When I got Lil, I had to get new sails as a PO stripped her before leaving her (long story). I debated buying used, and then looked at new and checked out the assortment of sails and materials at the various price points. I questioned myself how I was going to use the boat and if the upgrade in performance was worth the price. As my main purpose in getting a boat was to teach my kids how to sail, I'm walking a fine line... they might hate sailing (and then I'd be forced to give them away as they wouldn't really be my progeny), they might love it but they and the admiral might love it more on a bigger boat, like oh say a C320 (my master plan... insert evil laugh here), or they might want to get into racing in which case a Laser or J would be the way to go.

So I'm doing a bit of a balancing act between wants and needs and expectations. What I settled on was a new main and matching furling jib I purchased through National Sails. National Sails is a US distributor for Rolly Tasker Sails. Rolly Tasker is an Aussie and famous sailmaker who moved to Phuket, Thailand to open a new manufacturing facility. For quality sails, I couldn't find a better price and Dirk and National Sails has been very easy and enjoyable to work with. Rather than stray from Frank Butler's original design and sailplan, I simply repeated it. I ordered stock, original design, original dimension sails. Going to a different sail shape (i.e. more roach) could be great or it could have unintended consequences (weather or lee helm, balance, etc). I freely admit there are improved designs and materials and your intended uses will sway your decision. I just took the path of least resistance and a bit of the unknown out of the equation and went with the original.

I am very pleased with the quality and especially the price.

Let us know what you decide!

Regards,

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 06:38:05

When we replaced the sails on our C22 we went with the Catalina Direct Ullman sails. We were very pleased with them. You can check out their prices at [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com"]Catalina Direct[/url]

You should also get their C25 handbook. CD is a great source of all sorts of parts and kits for these boats, especially C25s and C22s.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 08:13:28

My roach is a little larger and I had problems with the battens, which stick out from the leech about 1/2", snagging on the backstay. This was particularly troublesome on lighter wind days, but I solved this by adjusting the full hoist height of the main downward about an inch or so.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 08:14:02

Do you have hull number 4?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 11:16:16

I'll second National Sail Supply as a good source of replacement sails for moderate price/good quality. I've been pleased with my purchases from them.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 12:28:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Cassidy
 Do you have hull number 4?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I noticed that, too, but his boat is a 1980's vintage. Old No. 4 was a 1977. As I recall, No. 4 used to sail at Brookville Lake, in southern Indiana, which used to be my "home" lake, and it still appeared to be in pretty good shape when I was there, early in the millenium. The C25 owners' list shows it in Farmland, Indiana. No. 1 (Confetti) is still active, and also appears to be in good shape, and her owner occasionally drops in here for a chat.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 13:44:30

It occurred to me that no one has answered your question.

Catalina 25 std fully battened mainsail
5oz dacron, four full battens, 1 reef. Sail comes standard with leech line with cleats at reef and clew, tell tales, slugs on luff, rope foot, sail battens and sail bag.
Price: [url="http://nationalsail.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=15"]$680.00 [/url]

Extras cost extra.

Edited by - John Russell on 06/09/2009 13:46:31

MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 13:50:03

Thanks guys. Hopefully we'll get a few more posts here. I'm thinking a nice Roach might not be a bad thing. We have a plethora of Catalina 25's here at Lake Murray... so a little extra might not be a bad thing. dlucier and I are on the same wavelength. I thought lowering the overall hoist height might be the way to go too.

I do NOT have Hull #4. Though it looks like I might have her original sail (kidding). Mine was built in 1984.

I look forward to continuing to read the comments.
thanks!
Murphy

Edited by - on

MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 13:51:01

That's pretty cheap. As in good price.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 It occurred to me that no one has answered your question.

Catalina 25 std fully battened mainsail
5oz dacron, four full battens, 1 reef. Sail comes standard with leech line with cleats at reef and clew, tell tales, slugs on luff, rope foot, sail battens and sail bag.
Price: [url="http://nationalsail.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=15"]$680.00 [/url]

Extras cost extra.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 16:16:33

I don't have it in me today to get into a whole dissertation again on Dacron fabric and the different grades. Let me just say that you can do a search on this Forum and come up with past discussions. A Dacron main will cost mostly between $550 - $1300 depending on quality of the Dacron (some grades less prone to stretch) and if you buy an off the shelf sail versus one that they come down and take the measurements and custom make the sail.

I bought a Quantum Main and 150 furling rig Genoa. They came down and took the measurements and their South Africa facility built the sails out of Dacron High Aspect.

If you go with what others have bought and have had good experiences, then that's probably as good as any in choosing between the different sailmakers and options.
One good website that explains about Dacron matl is Mack Sails out of Florida:

http://www.macksails.com/

Edited by - on

islandplanet
Deckhand

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USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 20:01:40

Cheap sails are often cheap because the material is second quality - AKA manufacturer rejects that can't be sold to customers like the lofts that build for the well known brand names like Ullman, Sobstad, UK, etc. Nothing wrong with going with a cheap sail if that's all you can afford. However you'll likely be happier in the long run with a sail that is designed for your boat, how you sail, and where you sail. At Island Planet Sails we work with several different production lofts including the largest ones that contract with the brand name lofts everyone is familiar with. We also have some lower cost options as well.
www.islandplanetsails.com

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 20:32:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islandplanet
 Cheap sails are often cheap because the material is second quality - AKA manufacturer rejects that can't be sold to customers like the lofts that build for the well known brand names like Ullman, Sobstad, UK, etc. Nothing wrong with going with a cheap sail if that's all you can afford. However you'll likely be happier in the long run with a sail that is designed for your boat, how you sail, and where you sail. At Island Planet Sails we work with several different production lofts including the largest ones that contract with the brand name lofts everyone is familiar with. We also have some lower cost options as well.
www.islandplanetsails.com

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There's a difference between a consumer making a recommendation to another consumer and obvious advertising. This is clearly the latter.

Cheap sails may, indeed, be cheap due to lesser quality fabric. It is also equally plausible that less expensive sails are that way due to many other market factors. The cost of labor and overhead in 3rd world countries, for example, could be one of those factors. I'm sure that our friends at islandplanetsails.com make a fine product and provide excellent service but to imply that a less costly product is necessarily poor quality is ludicrous. The idea that "brand name" is better because it's a "brand name" is just silly. Of course, one will tell oneself they're "happier" with an expensive product. Nobody wants to think they've been had. Everybody wants to justify their own indulgences.

You have a $5-$6k boat. I can't rationalize spending another thousand or more for one sail.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 21:06:32

The thing is that if I were searching the web and just going by what I saw on a mfrs website such as the one listed in this posting thread, the website has very little if any data that would sway me to pursue going with that mfr. My thought is that I would have had to have references that pointed me in their direction because their website has no technical data to get any hint as to what they sell.

There are many sailmakers that not only have a following (as in customers that have spoken highly of them on this Forum or from other Forums) but their websites have loads of info that at least give the perception that they make great sails. That is at least a start. Then if others recommend them and you can research their technical data to determine exactly what you are considering buying then perhaps you can make an informed decision. Burt if their website has little technical data and no one on the Forum or your buddies have had experience with a sailmaker, then I would hesitate before plopping down any dough.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 00:47:55

All sails are not the same. You don't get the same quality and cut in a cheap sail that you get in a good sail. The sails might look the same, but the shape is different, and in a sail, shape is everything. I bought a Rolly Tasker 155 to replace a 23 year old North 155, and the North sail was significantly faster, despite it's age. The RT had a much shallower draft, and was only good in a lot of wind.

The amount people are willing to spend on a sail depends on how they plan to use it. A circumnavigator will spend big money to buy top quality sails. I have a friend who only races his Cal 25, and he bought the best racing sails. They cost much more than the boat is worth. An expenditure that might seem extravagant to one person might seem entirely reasonable to another.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 04:44:19

I agree. If you want to race, I don't see any reason not to spend more than the boats worth on sails.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 06:00:16

Don't let anybody tell you that National Sails aren't decent sails though, I've bought 2 head sails from them and I'm very happy. I will say this, if my income were twice what it is I'd probably be looking at more expensive sails

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 09:07:16

At the risk of repeating myself (other threads - same subject), in addition to my good experience with National Sail Supply, I've also had a good one with Dave B. at Island Planet, purchasing a 150 genoa for our C-22. Both were RT sails. Good service, good price, good product, happy camper all around. You won't go wrong buying from either one.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 09:35:03

I have the full roach on my tall rig. Too much sail. I usually end up reefing the main earlier than I did with the standard sail. It helps in light air but, as mentioned earlier, the battens hang up on the back stay.

I wouldn't get it unless you have the standard rig which will allow you to adjust the spr downward to accomodate the larger roach. I would strongly recommend full battens or, as a minimum, the top two to support the larger roach if you decide on it. A loose foot is also nice if you like to play with sail shape in varying wind conditions and/or you race.

Since you are on a small inland lake one reef is fine. I have two on mine but I sail mostly on Lake Superior where storms come up fast and furious. You really need to be able to step the main down in some of the conditons I sail in or you risk a nasty broach or broken standing rigging.

I bought my sails from North-in the Detroit area. They were very good and gave me a deal on a furler with the sail order. I am very happy with the sails. I also had a Rolley Tasker 150 which I didn't like. The quality was fine but I didn't care for the cut. It didn't suit the boat so I had North cut it down to a 135. A little better but, I'm sailing my North 110 this year instead. I paid around 1400 for the main, 110 genny, and to have my 150 cut down and prepped for the furler. You'll get a better price in the off-season when they are looking for jobs. It's when I bought mine - ordered in December, recieved in April.

Edited by - on

MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 18:15:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

You have a $5-$6k boat. I can't rationalize spending another thousand or more for one sail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Really? Yet my Tahatsu 8hp long Shaft cost $1,300 new. (It came with the boat) And it's an engine I only use 5 minutes per day when I sail. I think the same amount of money being put into my sail "Engine" which I hoist up the mast and use for many hours per sailing day to be worth more.
Murphy

Edited by - MurphyPeoples on 06/10/2009 18:16:00

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 19:32:23

Something drove you to go with an arguably least expensive option for an outboard. The same reasoning is what would drive me to go with a less expensive option for a sail. Granted, it is the principle "engine" for the boat but, I'd suggest that a $700 sail will get your boat to hull speed as often as you want to get there for a number of years to come.

Edited by - on

MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 04:29:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I'd suggest that a $700 sail will get your boat to hull speed as often as you want to get there for a number of years to come.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, I can understand that. I plan on shopping around hard, and educating myself to materials. I honestly didn't know it was going to be such a learning process. I don't mind paying a little extra, but some of these materials... sheesh. You'd think they were made with golden thread.

Murphy

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 12:09:11

Murphy,
I suggest that you also check out Waters Sails in Lexington, SC just outside Columbia.
http://www.waterssails.net/
Joe Waters is is a good person to work with, and he is one of the top sail makers for the C-22 class. My C-22 racing sails are from him.
He will be more expensive than National Sail Supply, but definitely closer to you (especially if you sail at Lake Murray) and the quality is first rate.

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/11/2009 12:15:17

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 15:45:08

Good stuff guys, I'm looking at replacing my main and getting a 150. thanks for the link to National, look like they have some great prices.

Edited by - on

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