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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Boat rounds up in heavier wind

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tbock7117
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/24/2009 : 11:04:43

I have a '97 Catalina 250 with a swing keel and water ballast.

Every time we get a good wind the boat rounds up. Any suggestions and/or ideas on how to manage this would be really appreciated.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2009 : 11:13:31

Rig Tuning

I have a C-25, but I was AMAZED by the difference in handling once I took the time to go through a detailed tuning of my rig. It will now be part of my launch routine and regular maintenance throughout the season. I just did this a couple weeks ago and it was like I was sailing a different boat once I was done.

Edited by - on

tbock7117
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2009 : 11:18:28

Anything in particular you can think of in tuning that made the most difference?

Thanks

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2009 : 11:26:08

I have a wing keel so will wait for others with the WB to weigh in. There are many factors at play and I bet you will soon get some good feedback. It would help if you would be more specific about the point of sail you were on and the actual speed of the wind as well as what size jib you have. The more we know the more we can help.

And, welcome to the forum!

P.S. Use the "Search" tool at the top right of this page. Type "roundup" in the search criteria and choose "Catalina 250" as the forum. You will get a half dozen results that should get you started.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 06/24/2009 11:31:51

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2009 : 11:48:43

There are several good discussions in the 250 forum, but really, less sail is the simple answer. It's shocking at first, how easily our boats get overpowered, until you accept the fact that above 15 degrees of heel you're actually going slower (confirmed scientifically with my GPS). I fought this when I first got my boat last fall. I had never reefed my Hobie Cat. Not once. Tomorrow, for example, I'm going out with winds forecast to be 15kts, gusting to 20 kts. I'll put a reef in before I even hit the ocean. I may shake it out later, but I'm betting I won't.
Beyond that, put the traveller all the way down. If it's gusting, keep the mainsheet in your hand, and you can dump the unwanted power as need be.
How long have you been sailing?
Welcome to the forum! It's a great resource.

Edited by - windsong on 06/24/2009 11:52:50

tbock7117
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2009 : 11:56:06

We have a 110 Jib and this seems to happen the most with tail winds, especially when it's gusty...

Thanks for the reco on the search. I'm not sure why that didn't cross my mind... Seems like the jib size and even weighting the bow are two points that came up several times.

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tbock7117
Deckhand

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4 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2009 : 12:01:22

Windsong, I'm very new and green to sailing, but learning along side some very good teachers.

One thing unique is that we are sailing on Lake Dillon in Colorado. I point this out because the wind/weather is extremely unpredictable...

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Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2009 : 15:09:28

Your question deserves a short book to answer completely. I will concentrate on the rigging side of things.

The 250 does not have a backstay tensioner to depower the boat in heavier air so the rig needs to be tuned for heavier air at the cost of some performance in lighter air. This means that the rig should be tuned firm. [url="http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/tuning.html"]Tuning[/url]

The rudder plays a very important task because on the 250, it will be called on to not only steer the course but overcome yaw forces caused by excessive heeling (an intrinsic of some sailboat designs including the 250). For this reason it needs a lot of grip. If your boat was upgraded to the 3rd generation rudder, the rudder grip may be inadequate for aggressive sailing conditions. Tell us how long your rudder is and we can tell you which version you have. Some versions of rudder on the 250 water ballast are simply unable to cope with the yaw forces when heeling excessively.

Reefing the 250 is an important discipline and as it needs reefing earlier than many comparable sized boats. I often take one reef point around 12-15 mph of wind and the 2nd reef somewhere around 18-22mph.

Center board can be raked aft a bit to ease the helm loading when heeling excessively. Basically however, the 250 should be kept under 15 degrees heel but of course it has to be set up for some forgiveness.

That should give a start... but there is more to say on the subject.

Edited by - on

Skipper Paul
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2009 : 09:36:03

Used to have that problem with my 96 250 WB, Cured it primarily with a new kick-up rudder from Ida-sailor. Experiment with rigging including mast rake, sail combinations, and as the adage goes, "If you are trying to decide whether or not to reef, you should have already reefed.

I think that over 15 degrees of heel is unnecessary, uncomfortable for your crew, and does not increase your speed significantly.

I am not a bit against pulling in sails and firing up the engine, putting on absolutely minimum sail and heading for safe anchorage in winds over 25 knots and have done so.

These are not heavy weather boats. This is strictly my opinion based on my experience with this particular boat.

"Paul Hana" '96 C250/ "Serenisea" '91 Hunter28

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2009 : 11:07:37

If you pay attention to what Arlyn Stewart writes you wont go wrong.
My 95 C 250 WB has a second reef, an IDA rudder and basically rigged acording to the owners manual. With the double reef in, the centerboard about half way down, the 110 genoa reefed in about half
way and the IDA rudder have not encountered any indication of wanting to round up in any points of sail. JMTCW.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2009 : 11:16:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tbock7117
 Anything in particular you can think of in tuning that made the most difference?

Thanks
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I loosened everything off to "sloppy" and then followed the manual. I guess the one thing I did differently was read the manual...

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2009 : 12:37:53

We were out last night in winds that ran from 15 - 25MPH. We had the first reef in and the 135 furled to about 100. As the winds increased we doused the genny all together and she sat much more level and controllable. A second reef setup would have been nice to have.

I love the 135 genny for our predominantly lighter winds but when it gets howling that is a lot of foresail and the more it gets furled the less well-shaped it is.

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Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 06/25/2009 : 20:39:49

I race my C250WB and push it pretty hard (especially last night). On top of a good tuning, I rake my centerboard about 30 degrees. However the magical way is to loosen your main sheet. Typicaly I see the gusts coming over the lake, but also listen to the jib. When my jib starts fluttering and I cannot seem to be able to point it back I loosen the main which takes me right back on course with the minimal speed lose. I'm so used to it now that I predict quite well when my boat is about round up.

Even for cruising you will notice that our boats sail much better when flat. I try to minimize the heal by lossening the main a little more than one might think. Have a look at your knotmeter and you will be amazed on how faster you can get this boat to go by NOT giving it too much main sheet tension. I also recently changed my 110 for a 135 which is much more balanced now (way less rounding up, and tiller naturaly centered).

Edited by - on

jlannutti
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2009 : 09:53:13

I have a '98 WB with a 135 furled jib. I also was dismayed after my first few encounters w/ wind around 14 knots and above. The boat rounded up unreefed and wanted to round up even when reefed. I added 120 lbs of weight in the bow storage compartment as far forward as I could get it. This made the boat sit right on her waterline when in the slip. I also pull the swing keel back about a foot or two. This fixed the problem. She rarely wants to round up and there is FAR less weather helm. Good luck!

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 06/26/2009 : 14:20:42

The best solutions are the tuning, bow ballast, and reefing ideas mentioned above. One more trick when you don't wanna reef is to position the boom so that the mainsail is slightly backwinded on the tack edge. Then it is partially depowered, but this requires constant attention to maintain.

On my Cat 250 wing keel I found that I could not tack normally (swing across head into the wind) when I furled the genoa and kept a full mainsail. As others have advised the proper sequence for reducing sail as the wind progressively gets stronger is 1) put in main first reef, 2)next put in main second reef, 3) next main down, 4)next reef the genoa. 5) Put up an ATN Gale Sail jib or start the engine.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2009 : 13:57:31

It's been crazy windy here the last couple of weeks. Last evening we were out in 19MPH winds with gusts to 27. We had the main single-reefed and the genny out about 1/3. That kept her on her feet nicely and we made 5.5-6.0 KTS on a close reach. I first tried just going with the reefed main but adding the mostly-furled genny actually improved the handling. I had also tightened the rigging a bit prior to setting out. Also put the traveler to leeward and sheeted out when gusts would hit. An active night of sailing and great fun.

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