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Undersized Roller Furler? (CDI FF2)

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MartinJW
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Initially Posted - 08/13/2009 : 16:26:37

Hi Everyone,

We've been enjoying our 2008 C-250 for nearly two full seasons now, so we've worked out most of the bugs, and things are going pretty well... ...with one exception: furling / "rolling up" our headsail seems to take WAY too much force!

I had a CDI furler on my C-18 and an unknown furler on my Hobie-14, and both of these were pretty easy to use. Also, I've been sailing on boats with roller furling for decades, so I think I have at least some idea of how a furler should work.

I added two blocks to replace the furling line fairleads, and this helped quite a bit, but still...

We had some sailing friends out on our boat this week, and they agreed: the furling system on our boat requires much more force than they are accustomed to (on their new-ish C-22). By the way, their C-22 has a CDI model FF2 "flexible furler."

After a little research, here's a clue that I found: it looks like the furler on our 2008 C-250 might be too small. (Thanks, Catalina! Grrr!).

(1) Per Catalina's rigging length specifications (rev. 10/21/03), the forestay on our boat is 29'-7 3/4"

(2) Our boat came with the CDI FF2.

(3) CDI recommends:
(a) FF2 (4.0" drum diameter) for forestays up to 29'
(b) FF4 (5.8" drum diameter) for forestays up to 33'

It seems - and feels! - like the FF4 would be a better fit for our boat, as it would provide 45% more leverage.

So, here are my questions:

I. If you have CDI headsail furling on your C-250, what size / which model do you have? If you have some other brand, what's the drum diameter on your furler?

II. ANYONE else - with a FF2 - think that it's undersized or that it seems extra difficult to use?

III. Has anyone else had any luck simply changing the drum to a larger diameter?

THANKS!

Martin

updated 08/14/09:

Per SailBoatOwners.com (and CDI?), the following CDI furlers are recommended*:

Catalina 22: FF2
Catalina 25: FF4 ("regular" and tall rig)
Catalina Capri 26: FF4

There's no mention of the Catalina 250, but this sure makes it seem like the FF4 is a better choice than the FF2.

*http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail-cdi.htm?step=2&xkw=Catalina

updated 08/22/09:

According the The Sail Warehouse*, the maximum sail area for the FF2 is 170 sq ft; the 135 Genoa on the C-250 is about 205 sq ft.

*http://thesailwarehouse.com/cgi-bin/web_store_TSW.cgi?page=cdi.html

C25/250 Int'l Ass'n Member
2008 C-250 WK #973
"Bluebell"
Lake Tahoe, CA/NV

Edited by - MartinJW on 08/22/2009 18:51:00

Tom Potter
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Response Posted - 08/13/2009 : 16:43:53

Martin,
I had a CDI FF4 on my boat, however it was a tall rig. I also had the ball bearing upgrade which makes it easier to pull in. You may want to do the BB upgrade, that might help and its easy to install.

Edited by - Tom Potter on 08/13/2009 16:44:27

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/13/2009 : 16:50:59

Our standard rig C250 has the FF4. It also was a bit tough to furl until we added the BB kit. Now it furls nice and easy. I think FF4 is really the right size for our boats. Perhaps it was a dealer, not Catalina, who put the FF2 on your boat.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 08/13/2009 : 18:18:35

Pretty sure we have the FF2, and agreed! In fact someone on the forum commented when I said that we used the port winch to furl in the gib.

Paul

Edited by - on

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 08/13/2009 : 18:31:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Pretty sure we have the FF2, and agreed! In fact someone on the forum commented when I said that we used the port winch to furl in the gib.

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We've done that too, Paul, and it seemed absurd to me!

I think it's a safety issue, since my wife doesn't always have the strength to roll it in. If we get into trouble somehow so that I can't reel in this furling line, we could get into even more trouble.

I'm guessing that Catalina may have decided that the FF2 was "good enough" and, since it was lower cost, decided to use the FF2 on the C250 rather than the FF4. (Note that Randy's 2000 model has the FF4, while your 2005 - and my 2008 - has the FF2.)

Thanks for the information,
Martin

Edited by - on

essen48183
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Response Posted - 08/13/2009 : 19:16:11

Sounds like the people without a resistance problem so far have both a larger furler unit and the ball bearing upgrade.

According to the manual, the bearing that comes standard is a turned piece of HDPE plastic, the upgrades are torlon ball bearings (torlon is a very hard plastic) Randy almost has me sold on the upgrade, but he has the FF4. I wonder does anyone out there have the BB upgrade to the CDI FF2? If so, how did it work and was it worth it?

The kit is about $88 from CDI... be nice to know if it made a significant difference before I blow any cash on it.

###### EDIT ######
I was on the boat for the last three days, the 1995 WB came with the larger furler... the dificulty we were having came from the angle the line was led rubbing on the metal trim "can" I guess I will experiment with solving that issue, then will upgrade to the BBs.

Edited by - essen48183 on 08/25/2009 18:15:33

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/13/2009 : 20:22:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by essen48183
 ...I wonder does anyone out there have the BB upgrade to the CDI FF2? If so, how did it work and was it worth it?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That might be a good question over on Trailersailor.com, where people have a variety of boat sizes, and therefore probably quite a few FF2s. I've read so many good things about the upgrade, and bad things about the CDI without it, that I can't figure out why it isn't standard. (Well, I can, but come on...

)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/13/2009 20:25:10

glen
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Response Posted - 08/14/2009 : 06:02:25

We have a C 25 not a 250, but used the CDI- FF2 (with out the bearing upgrade) for about 15 years. Just like you said, it could be a real bear to furl in some times. I also hated the smaller diameter line that model uses. We finally upgraded this year to the FF6 with the bearings. I know this is over kill, but I Love it. You asked about installing a larger drum. The FF2 foil is different than the foil on the FF4, and they will not be compatible with each other.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/14/2009 : 08:21:27

I am convinced that the BB kit will make a big difference regardless of FF2 or FF4. Now that I have made the upgrade and inspected the parts it is just obvious that the BB setup is much smoother to operate. I would certainly try the upgrade before spending the $ to go to an FF4. If nothing else it will make your FF2 easier to sell since it will have the upgrade. Here is where I bought my BB kit:

[url="www.riggingonly.com"]Rigging Only[/url]

Call them for current pricing.

By the way my friend has a 2001 C250WK and it also has the FF4.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 08/14/2009 08:24:18

SEAN
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Response Posted - 08/23/2009 : 09:26:47

i have a shaffer 500 snap furler its real hard to pull in ..i put the 1/4" line around the winch 3 to 4 times when its windy and pull it in easy ..

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/23/2009 : 11:10:28

FWIW, I had a Hood furler, which has ball bearings... I furled in some pretty heavy conditions, while under way with the sail filled, and it took very little effort. I let the sheet out until the luff of the sail was just about to luff (as we say in the Dept. of Redundancy Dept.) so the sail wasn't pulling against the furling line. I also found that the tighter I got the furling line to wrap on the drum when pulling the sail out (using a glove on the line), the easier it was to pull it out to furl the sail.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/25/2009 : 21:02:43

Essen, the metal "can" can be rotated. We needed to do that to avoid chafing the furler line on our boat. It involves undoing the two screws at the base of the furler drum. We did this at the same time that we added the BB upgrade. You will see that there are extra holes in the base to allow the metal "can" to be rotated. Be careful doing this so that you don't lose any parts in the water.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/26/2009 : 05:38:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Be careful doing this so that you don't lose any parts in the water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The old trick: Cut a slot part way into a shallow box, and then slide the box around the stem fitting under the furler, starting from the bow (so the slot is on the deck.)

Edited by - on

windsong
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Response Posted - 08/26/2009 : 05:50:28

Interesting thread. I have the smaller FF2. The only duty on my boat that I insist on doing myself is operating the furler, as it requires strength AND touch. I wish I had thought to ask Catalina for an upgraded furler. I was not aware of the BB upgrade. I'll be considering that as a cheaper solution.

Randy, I learned the hard way about the rotation of the furler can. Last month, I put the furler back together with the can in the wrong position and sliced right thru my furler line the very next time I sailed.

Edited by - on

NUTHRTOY
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Response Posted - 08/26/2009 : 15:33:54

Some experiences with the CDI furler...

The first 250's were WB. As far as I know all were fitted with a 110 jib. The FF2 furler was all that was needed. When the WK models came out they were fitted with larger jibs and were different boats altogether.The C25 is different from the 250's. What works on one boat may not work on the other.

We have C250WB# 75

To make a long story short:

1. We furl the jib when heading up(into the wind) as there is little/no pressure on the sail and rigging. This can make a difference in the amount of force needed to furl.

2. The weight of the furler equipment is carried by the thrust washer on the bearings. The thrust washer and the plastic puck or bearing under it needs to be kept clean but not lubed. Crud wiil be attracted to the lubricant and add to the friction.

3. Some early furlers had drums(the black plastic thing that the furling line winds up on)which came from a bad batch of plastics and were not cured completely. This caused the pocket containg the thrust washer and puck to become egg shaped. It created a binding situation and was almost impossible to furl. Ours was one of these. We were lucky enough to get a new drum and advice from Joe who was the first owner of CDI. He advised us to skip the ball bearings and just keep the thrust washer/puck clean. Our furler has been working satifactorily since 1997 or 98 when these repairs were made. Shortly after this CDI was sold to new owners.

Best regards, Carl Schroeder C250WB #75 Nuthrtoy Lombard, IL

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/26/2009 : 16:54:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Be careful doing this so that you don't lose any parts in the water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The old trick: Cut a slot part way into a shallow box, and then slide the box around the stem fitting under the furler, starting from the bow (so the slot is on the deck.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave, if I recall correctly this procedure on a CDI furler requires the furler to be taken apart and the forestay released from the stem fitting. The bolts that position the "can" actually screw into the BB bearing or puck.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 08/26/2009 16:59:46

MartinJW
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Response Posted - 02/27/2010 : 14:15:43

Thanks for all the great input.

We decided to go with the CDI FF4 with the ball bearing option. I think that this is going to be a HUGE (safety) upgrade from the under-sized FF2 that's currently on our boat.

North Sails Direct has the FF4 with the BB option for only $618.00 (plus shipping):
http://www.cruisingdirect.com/cd/CD_catalog.taf?_function=list&category=26&subcategory=43

I think that this is just about the lowest price I've ever seen. Has anyone found this for less?

(I was thinking about trying to buy this at the Pacific Strictly Sail show in April, but I don't think I'll be able to find a lower price than this.)

Thanks again,
Martin

Edited by - on

zebra50
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Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 17:47:25

As long as we are on the subject, anyone have advice on how to eliminate or stop the override in the drum when unfurling?

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 20:04:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by zebra50
 As long as we are on the subject, anyone have advice on how to eliminate or stop the override in the drum when unfurling?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

First, make sure you are using the correct size line. Then, when pulling on the sheet to deploy the jib keep tension on the furler line. When pulling on the furler line to reduce the jib keep tension on the sheet. Keeping the furler line taut helps prevent override.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 03/01/2010 20:05:16

Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 07:01:23

Also check that the angle at which the furler line enters the drum is precisely perpendicular to the spindle (and forestay). Otherwise it will tend to wrap toward the bottom or top of the drum, causing an override and/or jam. I don't know what the C-250 has to control that angle--I used a block on the bow pulpit stanchion, that I could slide up or down to adjust the feed angle.

Another form of override can be caused by a hard pull to furl the sail, causing the line to "bury" itself within its own wraps. Going along with Randy's suggestion, you can minimize this by making sure you keep some tension on the line while pulling out the sail, so it wraps tightly on the drum.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/02/2010 07:07:39

zebra50
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Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 13:10:46

Thanks for the help. I like the idea of the adjustable block.

Edited by - on

windsong
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Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 13:27:05

I'm so glad this thread has picked up again. It reminded me that I've been needing to "fix" this. I just ordered the ball bearing upgrade from Riggingonly.com. (Thanks, Randy).
The cost was $62 plus $9 shipping. Sorry, Catalina, the FF2 without bearings is NOT good enough.

Edited by - windsong on 03/02/2010 13:30:47

Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 14:05:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by zebra50
 Thanks for the help. I like the idea of the adjustable block.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If you click my C-25 signature picture, you can see a black thing on the pulpit--port side. That's the clamp that holds the block. It's nothing like he solid gold Harken lead blocks in the new WM catalog--just a simple clamp with an eye-strap and a cheap block.

EDIT: Looking at a photo of the C-250 pulpit, I don't think that'll work for you--the only stanchion is too far aft.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/02/2010 14:10:29

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