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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Windvane steering

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/29/2009 : 16:12:11

I've seen articles about an 'auto pilot' system that uses a wind vane to correct the heading of a sailboat. According to the article, the windvane does not use electricity, just the gentle prodding of the force of the wind on the windvane to make the corrections.

Apparently, when the windvane is set to a certain angle, if the boat changes heading somewhat (e.g.: heads to starboard of the intended course), the windvane has some gears that steers the boat back to port.

Likewise, when the boat veers to port of the intended course, the mechanism steers the boat back to starboard to compensate.

Because of the negative feedback loop, the boat cannot get too far off course, provided that you can set the windvane to the correct angle, this should steer the boat back onto the desired course.

Obviously, you cannot set it with a compass, or via GPS/chartplotter accuracy, but if you want to head generally toward 75-80 degrees true, it should be settable and adjustable to get you more or less to ENE.

Does anybody have any kind of experience (good or bad) to tell about this kind of device? What effect does weather or lee helm have on this kind of system? What companies make them?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 05:17:52

There are a couple of videos of wind vanes in action on youtube. It looks like an awful lot of pieces and screwing around to me so I got a tiller pilot.
There is a lot of info on the internt about vindvane steering and from what I've read, they seem to be OK until something breaks.
If you passage making it would be great cuz it doesn't use elec.
http://www.mindspring.com/~waltmur/Self-Steering/

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 08:00:41

Autopilots steer to a course. Wind vanes steer to an apparent wind angle.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 09:35:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Autopilots steer to a course. Wind vanes steer to an apparent wind angle.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...which means if you're way out there and catching a few Zs with your radar alarm set, a shift might cause an autopilot to put you into irons (or jibe)... a wind vane will change your course.

It seems like everyone I've known with a wind vane system has had it break some time when they needed it--in one case it was when they were having trouble maneuvering at a gas dock--CRUNCH.

Wind vane systems are older than any of us... Many, many years ago (before most here were born) I made a model sailboat that used its mainsail as a sort of wind vane. The tiller was reversed (pointing astern), and mainsheet was rigged to it so wind pulled the rudder to leeward, counteracting the weather helm. It could be adjusted for points of sail--to windward only as I recall. Of course, I had to follow it in a boat to turn it around (no R/C). It could go forever at a given angle to the wind.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/30/2009 09:38:04

windsong
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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 11:04:42

My occasional sailing buddy, 78-year-old Ken Roper, who has single-handed the Trans-pac 10 times (and then sails back alone!) says this on his website:

'My primary means of navigation have evolved into electric auto-pilot steering (a fairly large number of cockpit mounted APs are carried) with GPS to locate myself. This compares to the use of the servo-pendulum vane and a sextant in the “old days”. I find that the electric APs (primarily Raytheon 4000 and 4000GP) operating the tiller give me a course with less yawing downwind compared to my vane steerer, once we get the chutes up.'

I don't know why he says, "we." He's the only one in the boat. :) I think he told me once he carries, like, 8 different autopilots with him.

As a somewhat surprising aside (at least to me) he says this about Radar:
'I don’t carry RADAR, but thanks to Bob Johnson in the 2006 race, I am equipped with an AIS detector and display which is worth it’s weight in platinum as a safety device in blue water voyaging.'

Edited by - windsong on 08/30/2009 11:09:09

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 11:13:25

A friend on a 40' canoe stern boat has a wind-vane. He loves it and single hands to the Caribbean most years.
It is quite a rig...

...and on our boats I think it would be way too much and interfere with the out board.
(This drawing shows a tiller he has a wheel.)

IMO tiller pilots make more sense for us.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 12:17:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by windsong
 As a somewhat surprising aside (at least to me) he says this about Radar:
'I don’t carry RADAR, but thanks to Bob Johnson in the 2006 race, I am equipped with an AIS detector and display which is worth it’s weight in platinum as a safety device in blue water voyaging.'<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Doesn't surprise me at all. Off-shore, I'd take an AIS receiver over radar if I had to choose between them--much more precise and informative about what you need to be aware of (commercial shipping), with no clutter. In-shore, for foggy conditions, radar becomes more useful for detecting navaids, fishing boats, pleasure craft, etc. (I don't go off-shore, so I have "budget" radar--after 2-1/2 seasons I'm still learning how to use it. There's a lot to interpret and adjust.) I will say that fog is scary anywhere, and having that extra "eye" that sees through it is comforting. But I'll still slow down to 4-5 knots so I can see and hear.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/30/2009 12:29:22

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 18:27:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 Autopilots steer to a course. Wind vanes steer to an apparent wind angle.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...which means if you're way out there and catching a few Zs with your radar alarm set, a shift might cause an autopilot to put you into irons (or jibe)... a wind vane will change your course.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

...which means if you are sailing parallel to a shipping channel, a wind vane may turn you into the path of freighter...an autopilot will maintain course.

Most autopilots can interface with a wind vane to enable one to steer to an apparent wind angle.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 19:09:02

My understanding has long been that wind vane units are for LONG voyages with fairly predictable winds, e.g. trade winds, where you don't want to drain the batteries running an autopilot. IMHO they're significant overkill for a C25, not only because of the outboard problem, but because our boats aren't designed for long passages in the trades. Wind vanes are also pretty expensive.

Get a tillerpilot: it will meet all your reasonable needs.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 19:27:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 ...IMHO they're significant overkill for a C25... because our boats aren't designed for long passages in the trades...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Exactly.

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 20:38:20

I mainly use a "tiller tamer" kind of arrangement on Passage with a very taut bungy cord.
I was sailing in 8-knot SSWerlies this afternoon and the tamer held me at 255 true on a close reach for about an hour. It was a beautiful afternoon in CT, btw.

After I looked into the theory and practice of a windvane auto steering system, I saw a picture that looked a lot like Peregrine's illustration. Seems like much ado ....

According to Wikipedia, setting up the equipment for this arrangement is rarely justified unless you plan to make multi-day ocean passages.

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Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 23:39:17

Try this, they represent almost all of the vendors, except Cape Horn and one or two others: http://www.selfsteer.com/

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 07:43:05

I waited to see what you all had to say about this - yes they are for long distance passages. We have an Aries windvane on Lysistrata. I'll take some pics this afternoon so you can see how it is set up in conjunction with the wheel steering. They do work, and work well in all conditions except running downwind. It would be major overkill on a C25, but would look way cool!

sten

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aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 10:24:44

Try and buy a wind vane for tiller or wheel for less than $2000. I've already looked into one for my C25.

On the other hand, I was an hour into a 2-day ovenight single-handed race-cruise two years ago when my electric autopilot broke. I spent 46 hours at the tiller with an occasional tiller tamer break to take a wiz or get some food. I'm determined to get a spare autopilot if I continue to do these type of race-cruises.

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