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Sea Tow Salvage Agreement

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2009 : 12:43:00

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5389 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2009 : 21:06:31

The example of grounding your boat intentionally, and abandoning it would allow anybody just walking along the beach to claim "finders-keepers", and they would own the boat.

As crazy as it sounds, if you find a watch or a ring on the beach with a metal detector, you own it.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2009 : 21:12:26

Agreed. No one is stepping up with solid con stories just scary assumptions. We all read lots of stuff on this internet about sailboats. I guess the law is more sensible than we thought. Might not be worth the trouble for con men to defend themselves in a court of law. I think the con is to make the owner believe he just lost his boat through bully tactics and for the owner to cough up a large sum of money before any of this goes to court. But signing legal documents on the boat right before the tow now that is a tricky one to get out of.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/12/2009 : 05:26:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 I wonder if this is an issue at all because I cannot google a good example of someone who got litteraly conned by a salvager and lost their boat.

Got me thinking to a new "what if" scenario. What if you would beach your 40 foot sailboat then during that week while in the process of organizing a rescue some salvager comes and snags it? Can we just put a sign on it explaining that we are picking up later?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, you actually have to be present and defend your ownership. Those who have beached and awaited salvage crews have camped in front of their vessel on the beach and physically guarded the boat.

There's a term for it down south around Hatteras and below - wherein evil townspeople once upon a time would put lanterns out such that they confused many a captain. The Captain would beach and the townsfolks would help themselves to the cargo, sometimes killing the crew if the crew tried to defend the vessel.

Not a lot has changed.

sten

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 09/15/2009 : 17:24:33

Lots of heat, but little light here so far. If you reread the posts there are altogether too many "ifs, buts & maybes" so try this: http://www.boatus.com/towing/salvage.asp Click on "next" lower right to keep reading the whole article.

It also discusses Salvage Arbitration.

Then reconsider your posts and continue the discussion. BoatUS is pretty good at defining these things. I've got a copy of this on board our boat. I don't expect to remember it, but when the time comes I want to have this reference VERY handy.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 09/15/2009 17:29:42

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/16/2009 : 14:37:23

Very useful indeed.

"Salvage, on the other hand, involves imminent peril to a grounded, sinking or stranded boat or to a protected marine environment, or the use of more than one towing vessel and/or special salvage equipment such as air bags or high capacity pumps."

However the vessel must be in Peril. Why is the vessel picuted below considered a salvage? Doesn't look like it's in danger just hard grounded.

These are all considered salvages:

What's the big deal here?

What is so dangerous about this one? Just tow it back to sea.

"Salvage: Sailboat loses its mast at sea", so if it would still have its mast it would just be a tow?

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 09/16/2009 15:02:33

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2009 : 05:44:41

Maybe this will make it easier to understand. If the responding tow/salvage company calls it a salvage - and you agree - then it's a salvage. If you hired your own crane or negotiated with a fishing boat or hired any kind of assistance directly - you are the Salvor.

sten

Edited by - on

Scooter
Navigator

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USA
228 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2009 : 06:03:21

To Sten's comments about towns people around Hatteras setting out lanterns to confuse the captains....

It is said that the name for Nags Head (south of Kitty Hawk NC) came from the towns people hanging lanterns around horses necks. Most of this area is low sand bars and you can see for miles across some stretches of land. They would let the horses roam free and the boats would think they were seeing the towns and run aground. When this happened the towns people would run and grab what they could.

That's the local folklore. True or not.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2009 : 11:44:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Scooter
 To Sten's comments about towns people around Hatteras setting out lanterns to confuse the captains....

It is said that the name for Nags Head (south of Kitty Hawk NC) came from the towns people hanging lanterns around horses necks. Most of this area is low sand bars and you can see for miles across some stretches of land. They would let the horses roam free and the boats would think they were seeing the towns and run aground. When this happened the towns people would run and grab what they could.

That's the local folklore. True or not.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I seem to remember it was well documented....

sten

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2009 : 13:37:16

It is well documented. The people would intentionally lure the ships to their grounding. If the stuff didn't float to shore they'd go raid the ship. Strangely enough I can't find anything doing a general search ...........

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2009 : 05:35:07

Dad was in the Navy and has handed down two main messages:

1. If you end up in court you have only a 50/50 chance and you never know which way it will go.

2. If you accept a line from anyone, they own your boat.

I say become proactive. If someone offers help, have them sign a agreement you have already drawn up stipulating they are just helping, not salvage.

"Here Sign this"

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2009 : 07:43:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 2. If you accept a line from anyone, they own your boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As far as I know, TowboatUS only uses their own lines. Anyway, I might go out and buy a 100' tow line right away!

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2009 : 11:42:29

Yepper, I keep a 100 foot 1/2 line in the aft fantail for just such an occasion.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2009 : 14:39:07

Then I own 3 boats, mine and the other 2 I gave a tow to after a race when their engine wouldn't start. I threw them my line. I'll talk to them at our final club assembly mid October too see if we can negotiate something. I'll forward them the maritime rules where I'm sure they will understand that they just lost their boat and render them to me in a civilized manner.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/21/2009 : 14:45:44

Dave is right about SeaTow and TowBoat using their lines - it's just the way that works with a professional towing service vs. the fisherman or fellow boater. Anchor rode would be my solution. Affix a bridle to both forward cleats with chafing protection all over and then tie the rode to the bridle. If you are in a hurry, unshackle the anchor and hand the chain to the assist vessel and then they can cleat off the rode. Otherwise, use the bitter end if you can do it without making a birds nest.

sten

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2009 : 05:28:53

"it's just the way that works" --

accepting corporate policy has never worked to my advantage. Follow like lemmings and over you go. You are essentially giving up your rights, especially to debate. Let the buyer beware has never been so true.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2009 : 05:52:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 "it's just the way that works" --

accepting corporate policy has never worked to my advantage. Follow like lemmings and over you go. You are essentially giving up your rights, especially to debate. Let the buyer beware has never been so true.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If your line snaps and whacks the TowBoat captain such that he is injured - the liability would be on them for being stupid. When they provide a service, they have the right to determine how they want to handle it...

sten

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2009 : 06:40:03

I haven't heard of a simple tow around here resulting in an unreasonable charge... It's useful to understand and ask about this issue, but I think the "accept a line" thing is overblown--I might be naive... Mystic also has the advantage of both TowBoatUS and SeaTow a few hundred yards from each other--I don't think either could get away with much nonsense.

Remember what started this discussion...
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Apparently, the boat rode up on top of the rocks and got stuck, the keel was partially dislodged and water came in. They plugged the leaks and pumped out, so they weren't sinking, but they also could not move - at least at that moment... The tow boat had to work the boat off the rocks at the time. Lots of leveraging and lots of pulling and yanking the 54 footer was needed to pull the boat off the rocks...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That also suggests the tow boat itself (just one?) was working around the rocks, applying a lot of force, and could have been faced with a sinking vessel after he got it free. (Rocks have a way of changing things.) This was a salvage job--too bad the owner didn't understand it, but now we do.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2009 : 07:21:34

<< When they provide a service, they have the right to determine how they want to handle it. >>

Valid point.

When they offer a service I'm paying for I have a right to understand how they are going to handle it. Salvage rights and "Sign This legally binding salvage agreement" is a problem. I'm thankful it was posted to start the discussion so that I could be mindful of the issues.

Thanks again to everyone. It certainly is better to have discussed these things before you end up in the same boat.

I still don't understand how I could be paying for a service, as an insurance setup, and they could additionally profit by claiming salvage rights. I'd have thought they were accepting the risks of helping the boatowner as part of their business structure.

Sounds like old laws applying to a new relationship that has never before existed.

Edited by - on

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