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Completely Overpowering Winds?

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Unsinkable2
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Initially Posted - 09/30/2009 : 17:59:47

I have a question about overpowering winds. The other day I went out sailing with one of my teen-aged sons, and there was a large storm system coming across the lake. To be safe, we decided to sail the Lido 14 along the shore instead of the Catalina 25 until the storm system passed. (Typically there are very strong gusty winds at the leading edge of these systems.)

However the leading edge passed with no strong gusts, and winds were running about 15-20 under the storm system. So, playing it safe in the Lido, we stayed about 100 yards off shore and were fairly flying along back and forth within a safe swim to the shore.

As the trailing edge of the storm passed we expected conditions to settle a litte. But suddenly, everything was blasted with 45 mph winds that lasted for the next 20 minutes.

Miraculously, we weren't completely knocked down. We hiked out as far as possible while letting sails almost all the way out. I assumed at this point that the boat would still make headway, because a small amount of main and jib were still powered.

But what happened was that the forward motion completely stopped, and the boat was blown directly to leeward. It didn't matter how much sail we tried pulling in, the boat was only moving directly sideways straight into the shore. It seemed that somewhere between 20 and 45 mph, the wind had completely overpowered the boat's aero/hydrodynamics. Sail shape, keel, sail trim all failed and we were now just being blown rapidly downwind (like everything else in the way of the storm.)

We scrambled to drop the sails completely and raised the centerboard to prepare for the impending crash into the shore, where we jumped overboard and stood in the water clinging to the windward hull for another 15 minutes to keep the boat from being blown up onto the beach.

My question is, why didn't the boat keep moving forward - or at least leeward and slightly forward? Do a boat's aerodynamics get tossed at the window at some point? And at what point does that happen to a catalina 25 (or would the rig fail before that point was reached?)

In the catalina we would have dropped sails and tossed out the anchor in that storm, but in a Lido we were prepared to end up in the water when things got rough, and were a short distance from shore. My question is mainly about the wind speed at which it appears that a boats aerodynamics might no longer be in effect?

(My son insists that was his funnest and most exciting sailing trip yet.)

--Skipper of the Unsinkable2
http://blog.unsinkable2.com
1977 Catalina 25 SK/SR #246 "Unsinkable 2"
1964 Lido 14 #1878 "Tomato Sloop"

Edited by - on

jerlim
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Response Posted - 09/30/2009 : 19:10:42

WOW - that does sound like great fun! Minds greater than mine will provide further insight, but I'd have to ask if you were trying for a beam reach? We've been out in steady 20's, with gusts to 30, and do OK w/ reefing and furling a bit and sailing as close to the wind as we can. On the return a broad reach has worked well...YA HOOO!

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Unsinkable2
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Response Posted - 09/30/2009 : 19:37:20

Yes, we were on a beam reach. Wind was straight into the shore, so we just sailed back and forth. When the big wind came up, we tried heading more into the wind, but by that time we were already being blown (blasted) towards shore and the rudder was useless without steerageway.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 09/30/2009 : 20:04:30

You've just described the dangers of sailing on a lee shore. I assume you know that no boat is truly Unsinkable

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 09/30/2009 : 20:39:51

Normally, what drives a sailboat forward are a couple of aerodynamic forces that interact.

1. The sail acts like a wing or a "foil", when wind is flowing across the back surface and the front surface, there is excess pressure behind and low pressure in front. The net force is transferred thru the mast to the boat. This gets the boat moving forward a little bit.

2. Then, the keel and rudder are also "foils", and are doing a similar thing in the water. As the boat moves forward, the leeward side of the keel develops high pressure while the windward side develops low pressure. Because water is an incompressible fluid, the keel and rudder are locked in a straight line and can't slide to leeward. or "in the track". Of course, because it is fluid, the keel and rudder do slide a little to leeward, but by and large, the boat remains going forward in a straight line.

If the wind is extremely excessive, sailors will tend to spill most of it by letting the sails out most of the way. If they don't, the wind will force the sails to heel excessively, again spilling wind.

In either case, the normal process of differential pressure on the sails fails to develop forward movement, rather all the pressure is pushing the boat directly to leeward. Without forward momentum, the boat cannot "get in the track"

If the sailor were to intentionally steer the boat on a run, the keel would "get in the track", then the sailor could turn the boat on a reach while maintaining forward momentum.

At this point, some of the forward force would be retained and the boat would move forward and get in the track.

At any rate, since most of the wind is spilled, forward progress is very slow. This is a seeming paradox - more wind should mean greater speed - but on a reach this is not the case because so much wind has to be spilled.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 00:17:34

Only a serious bluewater boat, properly reefed down and well-sailed, can claw to windward off a lee shore in those conditions. Big, choppy waves build quickly, and they slap the boat's bow as it tries to sail to windward, bringing it shuddering to a stop. Without forward motion through the water, the keel loses it's lift, and the boat drifts sideways, downwind. Instead of behaving like a sailboat, it behaves like a leaf on a pond, and only drifts downwind. Recently, on another forum, a sailor with a 29,000 lb Baba 40 complained about its performance in similar conditions. That's why many of us caution against taking the C25 so far offshore that you can't get to sheltered waters if a storm kicks up. It sails so well, even in 20-25 kt winds, that it evokes your trust beyond what it deserves.

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ruachwrights
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 04:26:30

Has anyone experienced this kind of behavior in the Cat 25-250 though? I think this is the main issue. I have been in conditions where my boat was so sluggish to windward in 25+winds and not tracking particularly well, that I simply pulled down the sails and motored. In fact I have found that having a good working motor is pretty necessary, not just for emergencies, but for comfortable cruising in long beats to windward, when running out of daylight etc... We may not like it but the iron genny is very important.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 07:33:54

I'm guessing this started when you were hiked way out and heeled way over, and perhaps one particular wave slowed you considerably... When the boat is heeled past something like 45 degrees, the centerboard loses most of its "lateral resistance"--the effect of the forces described above that translate the forces on the sails into forward motion. When forward motion is lost, the centerboard becomes "stalled"--no longer acting as a foil. Your only way to get sailing again at that point is to turn downwind a little, to get some forward motion so the board gets back to work... but you had a beach in the way, and your rudder is also stalled--you have no "steerageway". So you turn by easing the main further and trimming the jib go push the bow over... but then there's that beach! Anyway, once you get the boat going forward, you should be able to turn back up a little, at which point it might all happen again. This is the difficult process of "clawing off a lee shore".

Glad everyone (?) had fun and came through safely!

Can it happen on a C-25/250? Yup--if you scale up the sea conditions to the point where the boat's momentum is not able to keep her going through the waves, and excessive heel is causing the drive from the sails and the lift from the keel to be lost. That's why sailors in even bigger boats are concerned with lee shores in storm conditions.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/01/2009 07:43:16

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 07:41:42

I never experienced it in my C25, because, when the winds exceeded about 25 kts, I started to think about taking down the sails and finding shelter. Through the years, I saw boats come into the marina, after having sailed in over 25 kt winds, with broken gear and torn sails, and it seemed foolish to me to sail my boat until I broke something.

When I first bought my present boat, I intentionally sailed it to windward in about 25 kt winds with way too much sail area (a full mainsail and full 140% genoa) until it nearly came to a stop, because I wanted to see how it behaved in those conditions. When it reached that point, I rolled up a piece of the genoa and tucked in a single reef, and it started driving nicely to windward again. What that told me is that, you can cause any sailboat to wallow if you sail it overpowered, but, if you adjust the sail area proportionately to the windspeed and waves, a reasonably well-designed sailboat ought to be able to drive away from a lee shore.

I believe the Lido 14 wallowed because it carried too much sail area for the amount of wind. There was nothing you could do to make it better, because you can't reduce it's sail area. If you reduce the sail area of the C25 appropriately, and if you have skill at the helm, the C25 shouldn't wallow, and should be able to cope with the conditions, although any sailboat will be severely challenged in those conditions.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 09:18:27

When mine gets overpowered she just seems to tend to want to round up.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 11:32:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ruachwrights
 Has anyone experienced this kind of behavior in the Cat 25-250 though? I think this is the main issue. I have been in conditions where my boat was so sluggish to windward in 25+winds and not tracking particularly well, that I simply pulled down the sails and motored. In fact I have found that having a good working motor is pretty necessary, not just for emergencies, but for comfortable cruising in long beats to windward, when running out of daylight etc... We may not like it but the iron genny is very important.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've had my share of difficulty with my 250 and too much wind. It's probably the result of inexperience more than the boat, though. I have, on occasion, found it difficult to tack in big wind with waves coming from the wrong direction. The high freeboard catches a lot of wind and the wave action tends to kill momentum through the tack. I've started the "iron genny" more than once to make the turn. I think the problem is as Steve described, too much canvas for the conditions -- full main and 135% headsail. In any event, it makes the day less than pleasant. Unlike some others, I don't sail to test myself, I sail to enjoy meyself and relax.

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piseas
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 12:29:26

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Stu Jackson C34
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 13:08:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ruachwrights
 I think this is the main issue. I have been in conditions where my boat was so sluggish to windward in 25+winds and not tracking particularly well, that I simply pulled down the sails and motored...but the iron genny is very important.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The main issue is to sail the boat properly and not be over canvassed.

Our experience here in San Francisco is somewhat unique, in that we are fortunate to have steady, but strong winds. We get spoiled because we learn very soon after starting to sail here that the boats sail better with LESS sail, and that a reefed main and an 85% jib is much preferred during the entire summer.

In literally ALL other parts of the country, what you skippers are trying to do and in many cases NEED to do is to MAXIMIZE your sail area because the winds are variable and mostly light unless a front moves through in which case most times you have too much up. That becomes dangerous. Roller furling can only go so far.

A case has been made on this forum sometime ago that headsails over 130% are more dangerous than they're worth, because 155% jibs are hard to contain and control when it really pipes up. Your boat, your choice.

The one thing I'd add, though, is that we constantly see people motoring around, dead into the waves which is THE most uncomfortable way to go anywhere I've ever heard of (and we used to own a VW bug!

). If you're going to motor, consider at least motoring at an angle to the waves similar to sailing upwind, it's a lot easier on you and the boat, 'cuz that's what the hull is designed for. And if you're going that far off a direct course, then sail the darned boat, 'cuz it's a sailboat and that's what it was designed to do. A much more comfortable ride.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 13:11:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 ...I think the problem is as Steve described, too much canvas for the conditions -- full main and 135% headsail...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">John--are you set up to reef? Even with the full 135 out, a reef in the main makes a huge difference in a big breeze--less heel and generally more speed. Have you tried the 135 alone? Your C-250 might handle a little differently from my C-25 under 130 genny alone, but I found it to be a wonderful way to relax on a blustery day--good speed and able to point and tack almost as well as with the main, but with very little heel. You've heard me say this before, but the best part might be the ease of setting and dousing--pull one string and you're sailing, pull another (while under way) and you're not!

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 13:33:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 ...I have, on occasion, found it difficult to tack in big wind with waves coming from the wrong direction. The high freeboard catches a lot of wind and the wave action tends to kill momentum through the tack. I've started the "iron genny" more than once to make the turn...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll mention a couple of things that have helped me:

1. If you're pointing up, trying to tack to an upwind destination, fall off and ease the mainsheet a little before the tack, to gain boat speed. Then...

2. Sometimes this is hard, but to make the tack, don't slam the tiller hard over. Push it over gradually, increasing the turn as the boat starts to swing, and don't push it past about 45 degrees. At no time do you want to feel a lot of pressure on the tiller--pressure is drag. "Balanced" rudders hide much of the pressure on the tiller, but the drag is the same. You'll notice racers with wheels will turn the wheel slowly into the tack, and then slowly back as they approach their new heading.

These moves help to maintain momentum to carry you through the tack.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/01/2009 13:35:00

John Russell
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 16:35:05

I agree, Steve. I practice those things that I would rather not do regularly, e.g. MOB, Heave-to (although I like doing that for a number of reasons), emergency stop, etc. I'd hate to have to learn how in an emergency.

Dave, sometimes it's like Stu describes, lots of canvas for light winds then bigger wind build up over short period of time. I know, I am learning to anticipate weather better. The last time I had this particular problem the boat would even stay pointed to the wind while I furled and put in a reef. I was never in any real danger, just not as comfortable as I like it. And, the guy in the Hunter had a good laugh.

As to tacking speed, I've thought that one of the reasons that I sometimes stall in these situations is that I was too slow though the tack rather than too fast. I'll have to think about that one. I have a lot of experience falling off to gain speed though

No, I haven't sailed a lot on headsail alone. A few times but not in a lot of wind. I'll try it more next year. Kaija goes on the hard next Tuesday and this weekend doesn't look promising.

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JohnP
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Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 17:58:41

Tuesday was a blustery September day on the Bay with about 70 degrees air temp and 15-20 knot winds with some stronger gusts, and I was lucky enough to get out in the beautiful sunshine in the late afternoon and then moonshine in the evening.

The 110 jib and no reef would have been overpowering the boat. So, at the dock I tucked in a reef and clipped on the 60% storm jib. Then the boat sailed very comfortably the whole time - 3 to 6 knots with little heel. Smooth sailing!

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Unsinkable2
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Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 05:44:10

As usual, thanks to you all for sharing your experience and expertise. This is such a great association. I've only got about 4 more weeks of sailing left in this season (20 inches of snow fell in the mountains above the lake on Wednesday) minus next week headed to L.A. for a conference, leaves me about 3 weeks to get out and experiment with everything you all have described here.
Thanks again

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 05:47:54

Another important aspect when the winds freshen is sail trim, particularly with the main sail. Depowering the main using all the sail controls available (vang, outhaul, cunningham, traveller, backstay adjuster, and flattening reef if you have one) will enable you to better balance the sail plan when the wind pipes up. These sail controls become less effective if your main is old and baggy, but if your mainsail is in fairly good shape, you should be able to flatten it sufficiently to better balance the boat in intermediate winds. When these controls are no longer effective, then it's time to reduce sail area.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 07:07:15

If you're having difficulty tacking while beating to windward in big winds, there are a couple other things to keep in mind. In order to tack successfully, the boat must have enough momentum to allow it to coast across the eye of the wind. Big winds generate big waves, and, if a big wave smacks the bow of the boat while it's in the process of tacking, and while it's sails are luffing, it can bring the boat to a complete stop. If you have an inboard engine, it can provide extra drive to the boat during the time when the sails are luffing. If you don't have an inboard engine, try to time your tack so that you start the turn just after passing a smaller wave, and get the bow across the eye of the wind before the next wave strikes. If all else fails, don't hesitate to use a "chicken tack." (Bear off and come about 270 degrees.) Just be sure to control the boom when you do the gybe. Notwithstanding it's demeaning name, it's a perfectly seamanlike way of bringing a boat onto the opposite tack in difficult conditions.

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 09:02:51

Good tip, Steve. Unfortunately, the chop that counts as waves in Lake Erie have a pretty short interval so it makes timing them a bit of a challenge. But, I'll work on that more next year because it makes a lot of sense to me.

Doesn't gybing in big wind increase the likelihood of a bad outcome?

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 09:49:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Doesn't gybing in big wind increase the likelihood of a bad outcome?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Ordinarily, it's only a problem if you're carrying too much mainsail area, or if you don't control the boom. If you have reefed down the mainsail appropriately for the wind, then gybing should be manageable.

But, think about the alternative. The last time I did a chicken tack, I was beating to windward, south, on the Chesapeake Bay, singlehanded, in wind somewhere around 28-30 kts, and was nearing shallow water along the western shore, on port tack. I tried to tack onto starboard, away from the shore, 4-5 times, but was unsuccessful, because, by myself, I couldn't do everything that I needed to do efficiently enough to bring the bow across the eye of the wind. That left me with two choices - either drive the boat into the shallows in a storm, or do a chicken tack. In other words, a chicken tack, which requires a gybe, might not be your favorite maneuver, but it might be the only acceptable choice that you have. I had my reservations about gybing in that much wind, but the mainsail was deeply reefed, and it worked perfectly. You have to do what you have to do.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 10:18:34

I concluded that the key to gybing in heavy air is hauling in the mainsheet as tightly as possible as the stern is about to cross the wind, so while the leech snaps over, he boom doesn't swing and crash against the sheet blocks and traveler (or worse, the shrouds, or if it lifts, the backstay!) Of course, in the 270 "chicken tack" in heavy air (which I've also done a few times), you want to quickly ease the main as you swing back toward a reach, and then trim as you get onto the beat. And as you head downwind so the main is shadowing the jib, you can release the jib early and pull it over to a wing-and-wing position, which becomes the normal side after the stern passes through the wind. It's a good idea to practice this in moderate conditions--you'll be happy to have it in your arsenal for the nasty stuff.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/02/2009 10:19:45

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 12:05:22

It might be worth saying, at this point, that sailors generally think of gybing as something that is dangerous, and is to be avoided. Gybing is one of the basic sailing maneuvers. If you want to turn a sailboat, there are only two ways to do it - either by tacking or gybing. It isn't dangerous to gybe a sailboat - it's dangerous to have an accidental or uncontrolled gybe.

When you do a chicken tack, you begin with the mainsheet trimmed in hard, for a beat, and then you begin to bear off the wind. If you were just going to do an ordinary 180 degree turn, you would ease out the mainsheet for running downwind, either before or after the gybe, depending on which tack you wanted to end up on. But, in a chicken tack, you're going to go all the way around 270 degrees, and stop the turn when the boat is sailing closehauled on the opposite tack. So, as you bear off the wind, you don't ease out the mainsheet. You leave it trimmed in hard. In fact, as the boat turns, just before the wind pushes the mainsail across, you tighten the mainsheet even more, taking every bit of slack out of the mainsheet just before the gybe. That way, when the boom crosses over, it will travel the shortest possible distance, and do so with the least possible amount of force. Continue to turn the boat, bringing it up to a closehauled course on the new tack. Notice that I never talked about easing the mainsheet at any point during the chicken tack. You should be able to perform it while the mainsheet remains trimmed in hard to the centerline of the boat, from start-to-finish. You might think that the boat will become overpowered after the gybe, as it heads up onto the new closehauled course, but, if it's sheeted in to the centerline, less sail area will be exposed to the wind and driving. If you ease out the mainsheet, you'll expose more sail area to the wind, which is the opposite of what you want to do.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/02/2009 12:26:07

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 15:54:34

I'll only offer the opinion that if it's really blowing and rock-n-rolling, the hardened main makes things simple, but might not be ideal as the boat comes around with the wind abeam, before and after the gybe. It's brief, but it's real--in my case, maybe because I had too much sail. I would ease at the start of the turn, and then harden as the wind went aft; then ease again after the gybe, and then trim as I headed up. This was both to steady the boat and to maintain speed--a hardened main with the wind abeam isn't efficient, and a 270-degree turn requires more than the boat's momentum--especially in big chop. As for the jib, I give myself a few seconds downwind before the gybe--just long enough to pull it onto the other wing.

I didn't find any of this to be complicated--it was pretty much intuitive--out, in, out, in--keeping the pressure reasonable on the sails. The part that some people miss is having the mainsheet hardened and the boom centered for the gybe itself.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/02/2009 15:57:09

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/03/2009 : 01:12:26

I look at every problem from the perspective of a singlehander, because I do it alot, and because, we old guys tire more quickly. While you're doing a chicken tack, you need to control the jibsheet, so the jib doesn't wrap around the headstay or get snagged on the rigging. If you're shorthanded, you can't, as a practical matter, steer the boat, control the jibsheet and adjust the mainsheet in and out while making the turn. By leaving the mainsheet hardened, it's one less thing you have to mess with. When the boat starts to come up onto a beat, you'll have to trim the jib for a closehauled course, and in a lot of wind, that will be challenging enough.

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