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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Gas without ethanol

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/27/2009 : 04:14:14

Where does one find gas without ethanol. I'm running my 84 Sailmaster 6hp engine and it runs fine but I'd like to get away from ethanol. Are there places you can find ethanol free gas?

This Ethanol seems to be such a pain that I'm about ready to rename my boat "Corn Free". I've added stabil and I use 15% white gas, but what a pain to mix up a tank of gas. I'm about to name the tank "Witches Brew".

Ray in Atlanta, Ga.
"Lee Key" '84 Catalina 25
Standard Rig / Fin Keel

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 05:39:50

What are you looking for from the addition of 15% white gas?

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 05:59:48

I suppose it may be different in different areas but I've had no problems with either my Johnson 50, Tohatsu 8 or Suzuki 2 1/2. They've run flawlessly. Is it the fuel separation with time that causes the damage?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 07:56:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 I'm running my 84 Sailmaster 6hp engine and it runs fine...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If your outboard runs fine on Ethanol gas, why the need to look for an Ethanol free fuel?

If you did find a source for Ethanol free fuel, you'd still have issues with the gas going stale which is what products like Sta-Bil prevent.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 08:00:55

Some marinas can still legally sell gas sans ethanol... We've seen it and we fill up when we do find it...

sten

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 08:07:26

The problem with ethanol is phase separation from moisture with prolonged storage and the corrosive properties of that fluid. With reasonable handling and removable tanks, there is no problem. Add your stabilizer of choice and fill the tank 90 - 95% full and you're good for next season. Many of use use an even better approach - dump the left over fuel into the car at the end of the season and start fresh next year. The significant problems that occurred in boats with non-removable tanks in the early days lead to self perpetuating urban myths of engine eating ethanol. The problem is now understood and easily addressed for those of us with portable tanks.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 08:22:24

<< What are you looking for from the addition of 15% white gas? >>

I started using white gas in the lawnmower in the 60's and the lawnmower always cranks. I did the same with the 2 stroke engines and they always crank. I would not do this with a new (or Newer Engine) but I've always used this on older 2 stroke engines.

I've tried to use hi octane on my old engine and it would be hard to crank, rev up and die.

I asked an evinrude engine instructor for the factory and he was intrigued and he said the white gas burns slower.

I now have 5 evinrude engines from the last 5 decades and 4 of them run. ( I've never tried to run the 1950 engine )

I feel kinda funny doing this but then it works for me.

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redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 05:48:57

<<Dave: "Is it the fuel separation with time that causes the damage? ">>

I think the separation happens when it freezes, especially if you've had moisture and the ethanol has absorbed the moisture. I think you are far enough south, and on the water that you will not get enough of a freeze. I think I'm usually OK but some winters, like the one coming up, may be really cold. I don't think I'd get damage, just a wet plug. I expect the sta-bil will keep it mixed up well.

<< Don: "If your outboard runs fine on Ethanol gas, why the need to look for an Ethanol free fuel?" >>

I was stranded several times, once on the 4th of July and all I had was flares to try to signal for help, and another time my father was offshore without a radio. He was happy when that engine cranked. I'd rather find solutions before the problems arise, and I'm trying to understand what is out there. I think the ethanol will cause problems if the tank freezes. 20 miles offshore and when I turn the key I expect to understand the behavior of my engines. Wish me luck.
I've never had an engine not crank since the introduction of white gas. (17 years) I can't comment on the new engines, as they are a whole nother ball game. I'm trying to keep up with the posts on those problems should I have to buy one. I do not use white gas in the newest engine, a 1990's Evinrude 225 Oceanpro. I'm using the white gas in the older hand pull crank engines. With the 225 I hafta open it up and clean the plugs for the first start and I think it is probably time for a new set of wires as they build up resistance as they age. Those tanks ( 30 and 40 gallons ) are dry docked on the boat but it rarely gets a freeze down in Eufaula, Ala. and we keep the gas pretty much turned over. I will add Sta-bil to those tanks this winter.

So... I'm not having problems, other than the new tank cap vent on the Catalina was leaking gas, and the mounting bolts on the hull are loose from a big storm and the rope return is sticking and the rope probably needs replacing and the engine occasionally skips a little, and the wood mounting block is dried out and splitting up, but other that that the 1984 6hp Sailmaster runs pretty well, cranks easily, and does not not die at idle. No bad for for a 25 year old engine.

It's just a boat...

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 07:13:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 I will add Sta-bil to those tanks this winter.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Bear in mind that Sta-Bil stops further degradation so if your gas is already stale, Sta-Bil will only preserve your stale gas from worsening. Ideally, Sta-Bil should be used when you first pump the gas so it preserves it at its freshest.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 07:24:40

I believe most marine engine manufacturers are now recommending stabilizer every time you fill up--generally a half-dose during the running season and a full dose for storage. This is primarily because the octane of E-10 gas degrades more rapidly than with MTBE. Newer E-10 stabilizers like Marine StaBil also add some cleaning agents and may reduce phase separation. Since my current engine is worth more than my car, I go with the recommendation.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 10/28/2009 07:32:12

Rich P
1st Mate

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USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 08:33:43

If you want non-ethanol gas, go to the airport. Avaition gas (100-LL) would work but comes with a price tag.
If you want to go the additave route, Starbrite StarTron has gained my support over Marine StaBil (don't go with the regular in any case). As stated, use at fill up, not after gas has sat.
For a small outboard that won't be used for a period of time, add startron to fresh gas and run the engine long enough to be sure the treated gas is being burned. Disconnect the fuel supply and run the engine until it runs out of gas (a little tweeking of the choke at the end will get it to run a little more). Pull the spark plug(s) and spray some fogging oil in the holes and slowly pull the rope to get all areas of the cylinders coated. Take the leftover fuel from the tank and add it to your car and store the outboard tank empty.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 09:41:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Rich P
 ...Starbrite StarTron has gained my support over Marine StaBil...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Although I see on their site they've changed their story, I recall their Marketing VP (or somebody like that) posting on this site that Startron is a treatment but not a stabilizer, and suggesting using both. That's what I've been doing.

I'll also repeat a recommendation from a mechanic here who also writes for some boating magazine: At the end of the season, stabilize the hell out of some gas (overdose), run it through the engine, then shut her down and leave the gas in the fuel system. He says that will reduce varnish and corrosion. I've done that in my Honda 2 and 225, and both started on one crank the following season. (The 2 startled me when it happened!)

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 13:21:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I think the separation happens when it freezes<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Phase separation happens when the alcohol has absorbed enough moisture to fall out of solution with the gas, freezing is not a factor. Alcohol absorbs moisture from the air, so as temperatures change and expansion and contraction move air through the tank, the moisture level slowly rises. In a sealed container, E-10 has an claimed shelf life of one year (I don't know how it jumped from 3 months), but I still believe that stabilizer is a good idea in our application, and either an empty tank (best) or a tightly closed 95% full tank for storage. I have had no problems with two lawn tractors and a Miata stored full and a lawnmower and chipper and a variety of 2 strokes stored empty.

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Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 13:47:24

The two stroke oil I use is also a stabilizer. I can't find any for water cooled engines but it's everywhere for air cooled stuf.

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Rich P
1st Mate

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USA
77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 14:33:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
At the end of the season, stabilize the hell out of some gas (overdose), run it through the engine, then shut her down and leave the gas in the fuel system. He says that will reduce varnish and corrosion.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's how I do my 454's with the addition of grounding the coil and fogging through the carbs. I've always ran outboards out of fuel but am open to trying fuel left in the carbs on one outboard this year and seeing how it works out.

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