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Buying a Catalina 25-Any hints

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NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/08/2009 : 10:55:00

I am going to look at a 1977 Catalina 25 with a 9.9 4 stroke.

I used to own a 34' Hunter which I sold about 10 years ago. I now have the sailing bug again and I am wondering if there is any hints that I should look for tomorrow. The boat is in the water and has been kept in salt water.

It does not have a trailer and I will have to sail it home in this semi-cold weather (But not tomorrow). The trip would be from Norfolk, VA to Edenton, NC via ICW.

NCBrew

1998 Catalina 250WK
Ravaging
Albemarle Sound,NC

I spent most of my money on boats and beer, the rest I just wasted.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 11:25:10

I'd ask for a sea-trial, and also make sure the VHF works! Have you sailed the ICW before?

Edited by - on

John Russell
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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 11:30:16

I'm guesstimating that's at least 100 miles and most of it motoring so, I'd want to know that the motor is up to the task.

Many will chime in to suggest a survey prior to purchase but, the age of this boat and its realtively modest price (I assume) might make me think that the cost of a survey might be better spent elsewhere. I'd want to look at the bottom though. That will require a haul out. The seller should pay for that. If it's a swing keel (and I bet it is) the keel lifting mechanism is perhaps the Achilles heel of this boat. If it hasn't been maintained well (meaning replaced occasionally and recently) that could mean catastrophic failure. In this case, catastrophic means ripping the bottom of the boat off when 1500 pounds of keel suddenly and unexpectedly falls. If it's not a swinger, look at the keel/hull joint for the infamous "Catalina Smile" A crack at that joint wasn't terribly uncommon but it might not be a show stopper -- IF it was repaired properly. Look at the keel bolts. If the bilge sole is spongy, water has gotten into the core and compromised it. Since the boat is still floating after 32 years, swsome might say it'll last a while longer. Others might say it's due to fail any day now.

After the keel, I'd take a good look at the standing rigging. Corrosion is a bad thing.

Other than that, the boat is basically a plastic bucket with an aluminium stick attached. What could go wrong?

Don Casey wrote a good book that might be helpful called "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" Might be worth a look.

Oh, yeah, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there!

Edited by - on

farrison
Navigator

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USA
166 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 11:47:04

Everything John mentions above are good things to look at. Also look at the bulkheads where the chain plates attach. If the chain plates or windows have been leaking, then the bottom of the bulkheads may be rotten. Also, when I got my '82, the wiring was in pretty bad shape and I had to replace the switch panel and spend some quality time scrunched down in the lazarette reworking the wiring.

I motored that section of the ICW in an Island Packet a few years ago. It took us about three days and was beautiful. Finding the entrance on the Norfolk side was a little tough, we took a wrong turn and had to backtrack a little. A friendly tugboat captain led us to the proper entrance. We did get to use the sails once we got down to Albemarle Sound.

Good Luck!

Paul

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 11:59:14

There's a what to look for in a C25 right here on the website, isn't there? Howzabout a regular provides this fella a link.

OK, OK, I found it: Tech Tips: http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/tech/tech.asp Scroll down to the subject.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 12/08/2009 12:03:40

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 12:16:02

Fin or swing keel?

Survey commercial: Regardless of price, a boat of this type can have issues that an amateur without a moisture meter will not be able to figure out. Deck core, hull laminate, keel stub and bolts (or swing mechanism), compression post, chainplate mountings, spreader mounts, stem fitting, rudder blade, thru-hulls, electrical system,... These are some of the key safety and security issues that need a trained, dispassionate eye. The surveyor will let you participate and ask questions, tell you about flaws that should affect your price, give you a prioritized list of things to attend to, and send you a report that some insurers will require. (If you need a survey it for insurance, you might as well do it before you finalize the deal--for your own benefit.)

IMVHO, it's the best $350 you'll spend on the boat. You don't want to be paying a "nice price" for something that you'll have to take a chain saw to a few years down the road.

Have you looked at any other Catalina 25s? '77 was the beginning of the run that ended in 1991 with over 6000 built. Subtle but significant changes occurred around 1982-83 and 1988-89, all discussed here ad infinitum... They make the later years worth more in ways other than mere age.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/08/2009 12:27:07

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 13:27:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Don Casey wrote a good book that might be helpful called "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" Might be worth a look. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I strongly second picking up a copy of [url="http://www.amazon.com/Inspecting-Aging-Sailboat-Don-Casey/dp/0070133948"]Inspecting the aging sailboat.[/url] We looked at close to three dozen boats before settling on ours. Casey's book was instrumental in allowing us to quickly decide whether the boat was worth even looking at. We didn't want to buy someone else's project, so I spent a lot of time with a screwdriver & flashlight poking and prodding.

Good luck on finding the right boat for you.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 15:25:25

I will have to agree with John, if its 100 miles, make sure motor will get you there. When I bought my 2003, I motored sailed in crappy weather for about almost 7 hours. It was a great trip and it seemed like the time zipped by. PiSeas II was also kept in salt water but was well maintained with all her records. She has no trailer but that was ok with me as I have a slip. Where are you planning to keep her?
Just make sure sea worthy and do check out Stu's link. A sea trial is mandatory.
Are you in love with this boat? Have you looked at others. It sounds like you have not seen her yet. Don't know if you can arrange this, but on an older boat I looked at but didn't buy, I had a company clean the bottom and they were at least able to see if there was any damage. I paid the $35 and found out there was questionable damage. I walked away, even though I really liked the boat.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Steve A

Edited by - on

andypavo
1st Mate

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USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 16:39:09

I never thought buying a boat could be so stressful. My hull 2122 was advertised an 86 model. I didn't know any better. I still remind myself that I only paid $2900 for boat motor and trailer and even an air conditioner. My wiring is questionable at best. I doubt the keel has seen much maintenance. I have some questions for the original owner but he's long gone. In retrospect I may have held out and saved up a few more thousand for one that was ready to go.
All the parts are there and I think I'll just keep caulking the joints until the rain stops pouring into the bilge. That swing keel is going to be perfection when I get through with it.
Do your homework. The guys on this forum are awesome. Can't wait to meet some of them.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 17:17:10

Remember that a $10,000 boat will cost $10,000 regardless of how much you pay for her up front.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 18:07:24

Thanks to all who responded.

This 25' is a swing keel.

I don't have time to order a book on buying an older boat. I plan to ask the owner to haul it at least on a trailer if I can find one nearby. If not I will rent or borrow one to do it later. I don't think the owner has any other offers especially since this is December. I am in no hurry.

I am very familar with the ICW especially from Hampton, VA to Albemarle Sound. I traveled it a lot in my 34 Hunter.

I have a canal in my back yard that is about 12 minutes to the Albemarle sound. I just have to find room for it along my bulkhead.

I already have a 24 ft Pontoon boat (I almost convinced myself that idling along in the 4 stroke 80 HP pontoon boat was just like sailing) (It's very quiet) but it is not sailing.

Thanks for all the help and I will let you all know how it goes tomorrow.

NCBrew

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 19:07:47

In that case, print out the appraisal list that Larry Charlot put together, and Stu Jackson recommended, and take it with you. I would be wary of paying more then $3,000 for a 1977 model especially with no trailer. I would be looking at more like 1,500 -2500, especially in this economy. If she looks like new, these numbers might not equate, but 30+ years of service takes it toll. BTW, I have a 78 so I have some feel for it.

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 12/08/2009 19:08:38

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2009 : 23:29:22

OK, if you don't have time to buy a book, read this: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=102541

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2009 : 05:58:00

Stu:
Thank You for such an informative article. I printed it and am taking it with me.

NCBrew

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2009 : 07:29:33

If it were me, I'd hold out on a 87+ model with a wing keel, and in this market, it will be cheap! I'm seeing them a lot now. Check all the areas around you on Craiglist.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 12/09/2009 07:30:26

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2009 : 18:33:48

Well, I looked it over and the wind was in excess of 40 knots. It was tied up in a slip but it was not very pleasant being thrown around while trying to look it over.

The boat was not too bad for the age (1977) but with the rain we have had the past few days it was revealing. There was water sloshing around on the floor in the main cabin and the boat showed leaks in two port holes and around the mast where a electrical wire came through, The bow pulpit two front stanchions were lose and not bedded very well the rear leg on the pulpit was bent where the flange met the deck.

The running lights did work. It needs a new Mainsail halyard. (The owner told me that a few days ago.)

All in all I may have expected a better boat. I think I will keep looking especially since there are a lot of boats for sale. My problem is I need a swing keel since the canal I go out into Albemarle Sound is about 3 feet deep in the one spot.

So in closing let me know if any one sees a boat with a swing keel in the NC/VA area.

Thanks to everyone for your ideas and help. I will keep you all advised as I continue my search. The buying checklist was very helpful.

NCBrew

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2009 : 18:53:50

Sorry to hear that the boat wasn't what you expected, but I think you made a wise choice.

Now that you have some more time for your search, I'd suggest ordering Casey's book. There's a wealth of wisdom in there for what you're looking for, what's acceptable, and what's not. Then you can judge for yourself how much work you think it's going to be to fix a given boat you're looking at.

Good luck with your search, keep asking questions, and let us know how it goes.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2009 : 19:01:57

If you can find a wing keel in your price range, it would probably be a better choice than the swing keel in salt water.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2009 : 19:23:44

I am not familar with a "wing keel".

Is the draft around 2 ft?

NCBrew

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1776 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2009 : 20:44:27

For what it's worth . . . with ANY boat I would have a survey. As mentioned the best money you will spend. I did not have one before I bought mine as the price was so "reasonable" and while I have enjoyed the restoration project I would not have bought her if I knew what the survey revealed. The 25 had a long production run so their are tons available -- many well cared for, some not -- most in between. If you get a good one (or decide to restore one) they are a wonderful boat that will take you safely anywhere along the coasts on on the lakes. Good Luck!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/09/2009 : 22:05:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 I am not familar with a "wing keel". Is the draft around 2 ft?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">More like 3 ft... 2'10", which is only 2" more than the fully raised swing keel. The wing replaced the swing in about 1987. Some swingers have been retrofitted with wings by owners who grew tired of the maintenance (or the sinking from lapses in maintenance). The wing keel is not optimal for a racer, but has proven to very adequate for the cruiser/daysailor, and nearly as stiff as the 5' swing or 4' fin.

In 1989, the cabin sole was lowered and flattened, taking advantage of the elimination of the swing keel from the lineup.

Another significant change came around 1982(?), when a fuel locker was molded into the port-side cockpit seat, replacing a shelf inside the "sail locker" under the seat. Many other upgrades that Catalina made are available from [url="http://catalinadirect.com/"]Catalina Direct[/url], a third-party supplier that has lots of good stuff for our boats.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/10/2009 06:48:26

JohnP
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Response Posted - 12/10/2009 : 08:33:46

Patrick,

Now you have the time to email these [url="http://www.marinesurveyor.com/ncarol.html"]marine surveyors in NC [/url]to get quotes for their services and find out about their availability to come to wherever you find a boat. I'm sure you'll be relieved to get a survey on the boat you plan to buy. It would take you years to discover all the problems the surveyor will find in an hour. It's the most important $300 you'll spend on the good old boat.

Don Casey's books are useful, and I would suggest getting his [url="http://www.amazon.com/Caseys-Complete-Illustrated-Sailboat-Maintenance/dp/0071462848"]sailboat maintenance manual [/url]that includes chapters on inspecting the aging sailboat, hull and deck repair, refinishing, electrical systems, diesel engines, and sails. 900 pages. 6 books in one. (Unfortunately, nothing on outboards. Casey rationalizes that it's simple to take your outboard to a qualified mechanic. That's true, but I would have liked to know more about my outboard to avoid making some mistakes.) The book is a 2006 edition and the discussion of boat electronics, of course, may be the one area not up to date. But that's ok.

It's a buyer's market. Good luck!

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2009 : 08:46:15

I waited, and even traveled 600 miles, to get my 89 because I wanted the wing keel and lower floor which will give you more head room. You won't have a step running down the cabin. No maintenance for the keel either.
It will cost you a bit more than the previous years, but it may be worth it to you.

Check craigslist and sailingtexas.com classifieds. One will pop up for you.

Edited by - on

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2009 : 16:45:32

OK, I am convinced. Does anyone know where I can find a Catalina 25 in reasonable shape with a wing keel?

Let me know please. i need to buy one before the sailing bug leaves me.

NCBrew

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2009 : 20:42:58

Late model ('89-91) wings are trickier to come by, but worth the effort. Meanwhile, here's an [url="http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/Catalina-25-2018709/Zebulon/NC/United-States"]'87 fin keel[/url] (4' draft), maybe in your neighborhood...

BTW, once the bug bites, you're bitten. Enjoy the quest, and the result!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/10/2009 20:46:35

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 12/10/2009 : 21:08:01

Thanks for the help but I cannot use a 4' draft.

NCBrew

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