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Outboard Motor having problems

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Bortiquai
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Initially Posted - 12/28/2009 : 16:43:30

Well, this isn't exactly a sailing/catalina question, but the motor is attached to my 1980 Catalina 25. Not to mention i need the stupid thing to get in/out of the marina. Maybe there is a "motor guru" that can help me out.

I've got a 2-stroke Yamaha Enduro 8HP outboard engine. I've been using it for 2 years. From the time I got it, it would start on the first pull every single time. I run it for about 10 minutes out of the marina, and 10 minutes back in, about 4 to 6 times per month year-round. Every time i get back to the dock, I disconnect the fuel line and run the engine until it stalls.

About 3 months ago, I started occasionally having problems getting it started when I was coming back in. It seemed like it was getting flooded, so I would disconnect the fuel line, and pull like crazy on the rip-cord and eventually it would fire up and run fine until the dock. The next time out, it would start up first time.

About a month ago, I started having trouble getting it stared on the way out as well. So I brought it in to be serviced. They said there was a seal and a diaphragm that was leaking fuel into the carburetor causing the flooding.

I've got the engine back, and it is definitely not fixed. It is very hard to start and yesterday I couldn't get it going at all. I've put in new spark plugs, and even replaced the fuel line connectors.

So, does anyone have any ideas that I can check? I'm in Puerto Rico, and finding a good mechanic here is impossible. I can't afford to keep paying $200 a pop and it still not be fixed, so I want to go through everything that i would be able to check/fix.

At this point, it is very difficult to start. I don't even know anymore if there is too much fuel (flooded) or not enough (or how to tell - when i squeeze the bulb, i can see fuel go into the filter, but after that I don't know). But once the thing gets going, it runs very smooth, never stalls and the throttle is very responsive. Just getting her going is the problem.

Thanks
Matt

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 12/28/2009 : 17:25:14

Matt,
A little more information would be helpful. When the engine was running well did you choke it to start it? You don't use much gas so it might be aributable to stale gas.Or it might be a mixture problem which could be caused by a malfunctioning choke or dirty jet. You have already replaced the plugs so unless their is a weak spark due to a magneto problem (not probable) I would conentrate on the carburetor.

Edited by - on

JimB517
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Response Posted - 12/28/2009 : 17:50:51

If the motor is flooded and won't start, pull a spark plug. If the motor really is flooded, the plug will be very wet.

If the motor is flooded (plugs are wet) disconnect the fuel supply, pull both plugs, open the throttle all the way, and pull and pull the starter cord until nothing blows out the holes and it is dry. Clean and dry the plugs, and check the gap. Replace. Reconnect fuel. Should start right up.

If it is flooding, probably the needle valve in the carborator is bad. Get a carb rebuild kit.

If the plugs are dry, then it is not flooded, and it is most likely an electrical problem. Leave the plugs out of the hole and ground the tip to the motor. Pull the cord. There should be a strong, visible, blue spark. Warning, this can shock you.

Make sure the choke is working.

Edited by - on

Bortiquai
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Response Posted - 12/28/2009 : 19:46:22

Thanks for your replies. This is good stuff.

I would always pull the choke out to start the engine when it was cold. (i.e, right before going out). When coming back in, I never had to use the choke. Even if we had been sailing all day, and the motor had been off the whole time.

The stale gas thing is something I've always thought about. I go through less than a gallon per month, so I only mix a little bit of gas. Even still, I'm sure at times i was using gas that was older than it should be. When I just had it serviced, I got a bottle of the Yamaha fuel conditioner. The guy told me it will stabilize it so I don't have to worry about the gas going bad.

When things were good, when it was cold it would start on the 2nd pull at worst, but usually on the first. Coming back in, not even a full pull would get it going. Now, even after it's been running, if I shut it down, then try to start it right back up, it takes 3-4 pulls.

Also, I just went down to the marina. I disconnected the fuel line because I knew there was still gas in there from yesterday when I couldn't get it going. It kicked in on the 4th pull.

How do I know if the choke is working? When I pull it out, the engine shuts down right away.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 12/28/2009 : 22:05:03

If the engine dies when you pull the choke that is a good indication it is working properly. Gas stabilizer will not restore stale gas. It keeps gas from going stale. Start with fresh fuel and then follow Jim's suggestions though before I sprung for a rebuild kit I would buy some aerosol carb cleaner and spray the needle jet orifice thoroughly to try and free up any residues.

Edited by - on

Bortiquai
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 08:00:28

Today, i'm pretty sure it is a flooding problem. The plugs definitely have spark.

So, I took the carburetor off, and basically took it apart the best I could. The float seems to be moving up and down freely. I couldn't really see the needle valve, and i was hesitant to take it apart because it looks very small. It definitely looks very clean in there - no black gunk or coloring. Everything is nice and shiny.

I didn't really do anything, to the parts/pieces, and just put it all back together (hoping not to have any left over parts). One thing that I paid attention to is when I am priming the carb with the bulb. Before (when things were good) I would squeeze 2-3 times and then it would get very firm. That's how I knew to stop. Now, it doesn't seem to get that firm. it gets "firmer" but without over doing it, it seems like I could squeeze forever.

But somehow, after putting it all back together, it's starting up on the first pull every time. When it was cold, on the first pull it wanted to go then stalled. On the next pull, it fired up. I ran the gas out of it 3 times, stopping and starting, and pretty much every time it kicked in on the first pull. Right now i'm letting it get cold again to see what happens.

I'm sure I didn't fix anything, and like I said, now I'm only squeezing the bulb 2 times regardless of how firm it gets.

I really appreciate everyone's help. From what I've read, it does seem like the needle valve isn't closing, or the float isn't floating. I'm really not sure how to check/clean the needle valve. Like i said - it looks very small... or maybe I'm looking at the wrong thing. Also, what would you use to clean it?

Thanks
Matt

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 09:48:50

My Merc had starting problems, and I found out the cause was a leak in the fuel line that was so tiny that it didn't leak gas, so there was no visible indication of a leak. It only leaked air, and the fuel line wouldn't retain it's prime. It might be leaking from dry rot cracks in the hose, or it could be leaking from the hose clamps. I replaced the hose, bulb, and all the original crimped hose clamps with screw-adjustable hose clamps. Afterwards, when I pumped the squeeze bulb, it held it's pressure and the engine started fine. This might not be your problem, but it happened twice to me, and it's cheap to fix. By replacing the parts, you'll either fix the problem or eliminate it as the cause.

Edited by - on

Bortiquai
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 09:54:51

That is a good point because I've had to replace the fuel line connector before. I have a brand new on on hand as well. Maybe I'll change it out. This caused me problems before with priming/getting fuel to to engine, but never a flooding problem like I'm having. The other thing is that if i squeeze the bulb with the fuel line disconnected, i can tell nothing is happening - no fuel is moving, feels like it is closed. But, like you said - it's a cheap fix. Especially since I've already got the parts.

It still seems better than yesterday after taking the carb apart. But i still have this feeling there is something up with the float or needle valve. This comes from everything that I know about engines (pretty much nothing).

Thanks
matt

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 10:04:55

Matt,
When you squeeze the bulb you are filling the carburetor bowl with gas. As the bowl fills up it raises the float which closes the jet from the bowl to the throat of the carb (simplistically stated). It sounds like that jet was sticking which would explain the bulb not getting hard. With the jet held open you would overfill the bowl and then flood the engine. The same thing will occur if you have a leaky float. So your assumption the engine was flooding is most likely correct. I suspect when you opened up the carb you worked the float and released whatever was holding the jet open.

One of the arguments against running all of the fuel out of your carburetor when shutting it down is that the remaining fuel coating the parts that reside in the carburetor bowl evaporate quickly and leave a residue. Leaving fuel in the bowl helps prevent that degree of evaporation unless it is left for a long period of time. I usually leave fuel in my carb unless I know I will not be firing it up for at least a month. You can get a can of carb cleaner (not the aerosol type) and add it to your gas. It will clean up those residues while your engine is running.

Edited by - on

Bortiquai
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 10:44:41

Well now i feel like i'm back to square one. I just went out and tried to start it and nothing. The first pull had a little cough, and then the next 20-30 were dead.

So I removed the spark plugs. They are brand new, and still look new. They had a little bit of black moisture (fuel i'm assuming) in the threads, and a little on the tip (very very little), but mostly they were clean.

I removed both plugs and puled the cord about 10-15 times. Nothing came out the plug holes - now spray, no nothing. I then attached the spark plug to the cable, and held the tip to the engine and with the other arm, slowly pulled the cord. I did not see any spark. I held the tip to several different places, including the power block, a pan head screw and the top part where the fly-wheel for the rip cord is.

I never saw a spark, but I have to admit i'm not sure i was doing this correctly, and also holding the plug still while pulling the cord and watching for spark was a bit of a circus act for me. Finally, at one point, I must have gotten my thumb a little too close because I felt the shock. Though I never saw a spark.

I re-installed the plugs, re-connected the fuel line and gave it another 20 or so pulls. Dead dead dead. I then came up to my computer.

I already know that when I go back down in an hour or two, it will fire up on the 3 or 4th pull.

I will go out and get some of the carb cleaner you recommend. Can I get that at PepBoys? Or is there a specific marine engine kind?

Thanks for the tip about running to empty. I was told by a friend from the beginning to do that every time, but he is certainly not a mechanic.

Thanks to all
Matt

Edited by - on

PCP777
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 12:07:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bortiquai
 Well now i feel like i'm back to square one. I just went out and tried to start it and nothing. The first pull had a little cough, and then the next 20-30 were dead.

So I removed the spark plugs. They are brand new, and still look new. They had a little bit of black moisture (fuel i'm assuming) in the threads, and a little on the tip (very very little), but mostly they were clean.

I removed both plugs and puled the cord about 10-15 times. Nothing came out the plug holes - now spray, no nothing. I then attached the spark plug to the cable, and held the tip to the engine and with the other arm, slowly pulled the cord. I did not see any spark. I held the tip to several different places, including the power block, a pan head screw and the top part where the fly-wheel for the rip cord is.

I never saw a spark, but I have to admit i'm not sure i was doing this correctly, and also holding the plug still while pulling the cord and watching for spark was a bit of a circus act for me. Finally, at one point, I must have gotten my thumb a little too close because I felt the shock. Though I never saw a spark.

I re-installed the plugs, re-connected the fuel line and gave it another 20 or so pulls. Dead dead dead. I then came up to my computer.

I already know that when I go back down in an hour or two, it will fire up on the 3 or 4th pull.

I will go out and get some of the carb cleaner you recommend. Can I get that at PepBoys? Or is there a specific marine engine kind?

Thanks for the tip about running to empty. I was told by a friend from the beginning to do that every time, but he is certainly not a mechanic.

Thanks to all
Matt
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had all sorts of problems starting my 2007 mercury 9.9 HP 4 stroke, even though it's almost brand new. The problem was I was flooding the engine and I've had much better luck leaving the fuel line attached. I used to squeeze the ball until it was hard and that was flooding it out. Now I might give it two light squeezes if any and it fires right up. Leave the line attached and try starting it without squeezing the ball at all and see what happens. Less is more in my case and as all my sailing buddies tell me, every engine has it's own little tricks to get started.

Good luck, I've lived in that world and it's a pain in the .....there were a couple times where I actually got so pissed that I decided to sail in and out, always fun in a packed marina from a slip but I actually did fine. maybe you can make the problem an opportunity, keep your boat hook out.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 12:34:35

It can be very difficult to see a spark plug fire in the daylight. Almost impossible to pull the cord, stabilize the plug and watch the tip at the same time. Another pair of hands would help but I doubt that is your problem.

If you think the engine is flooded, turn off the choke and open the throttle fully. Pull it about 10-20 times and see if it starts. If you get am aerosol can of carb cleaner you can spray that in the throat of the carb for about 2 seconds and then try and start it. I think your problem still lies with a dirty carb jet. Don't pump that bulb anymore unless you ran the carb dry the last time you ran it. You do not have to buy marine carburetor cleaner or stabilizer. Stabil makes a stabilizer you can use and just about any carb cleaner will work. Whatever Pep Boys has will suffice. Follow the directions on the can.

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 14:19:45

I fought a somewhat antiquated Honda 10 for the first year I owned my boat. I finally sat down and figured out how much sailing time I'd lost to repairs on that motor, not to mention the frustration when it took forever to get started (came darn close to losing my vessel to a mutinous crew over my inoperable outboard one hot August night...)

Finally decided to buy a new one (Tohatsu 9.8, electric start). Only after putting the new outboard on did I realize 99% of my sailing stress was caused by that unreliable outboard. I've enjoyed every trip since then, and never give my outboard a second thought. Turns out sailing is my love - not small engine repair.

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DaveR
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 14:52:23

I recently had a problem with an outboard where it seemed the electrical was fine. All the lights worked. When I went to fire up the motor (key start) the motor would click but that was all after much toiling and replacing the solenoid it turned out to be a poor ground to the battery wasn't allowing for a good enough electrical flow to actuate the starter. I removed and cleaned the battery connection and it started right up!

ps- also make sure your float arm in the carb is straight and it's not hanging up on anything. If the arm is bent down, not enough gas, if bent up, too much.

Edited by - DaveR on 12/29/2009 14:57:31

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 17:15:58

You mentioned about having a new fuel line connector on hand. Did you install it to rule that out as contributing to your problems ?

I have replaced my fuel line connector twice so far. That's the connector that attaches to the outboard. The first time this happened, I had some startup issues. I then noticed the connector had a small leak. It had a very small (barely noticeable) crack near the o-ring in the plastic housing. I suspect that air was getting into the fuel line via that crack. Replacing the connector solved the issue. The second time around...about 2 years later, I noticed some gas leaking but I had no startup problems. I replaced the connector.

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Bortiquai
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Response Posted - 12/29/2009 : 19:21:35

Thanks to everyone who chimed in.

I'm just getting home and about to go see if it starts. I appreciate all the advice. As I figure things out, i'll up date the post.

I've been saying I wish I could sail in and out of my slip, but the marina is tucked in behind two high-rises. I've had times where i was concerned there wouldn't be enough wind to sail that day, only to be greeted with at 15 knot puff as I exit the mouth of the marina. Unfortunately, I need the motor. I knew there was a reason I didn't buy a power boat....

Tomorrow I'll put on the new connector and get some carb cleaner. It has been so reliable and solid for 2 years, I hate to think that I now have a motor with "tricks".

Thanks again
Matt

Edited by - on

Bortiquai
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Response Posted - 12/30/2009 : 18:17:38

So the saga of the motor continues, but I think I'm making progress. After lots of testing today, I've got it to where I can get it fired up on the first or second pull. I definitely think that my problem is "over priming" and getting too much fuel into the carb. I am going to get a carb rebuild kit eventually, but for the time being, I want to get it as good as I can.

So i got a spray carb cleaner, and a fuel additive carb cleaner, and have a couple of questions:

1) It says (and someone also mentioned on here) to spray it into the "Throat" of the carb. Is that the air intake? Will that get it through the whole carburator? It seems like other than the air intake, it is pretty much all sealed up.

2) Should i use both the spray and the additive?

Thanks
Matt

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 12/30/2009 : 18:33:24

There isn't an air cleaner so spraying into the air intake is correct. I just wouldn't put too much faith in it working. And as long as the fuel additive is OK for two strokes, it won't hurt to use both, but again, it won't likely do much good. The carb likely needs to be gone through to get rid of any mechanical blockage, varnish or stickiness in the float valve. They are quite simple to go through and as you have narrowed it down to a fuel (over-fuel) problem, it should return it to it's former state.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 12/30/2009 : 19:15:45

Matt,
My suggestion to spray the cleaner in the throat of the carb referred to when it would not start. Carb cleaner is high octane and will act like starter fluid. It will not clean the jets by spraying it in the throat. I know you said you checked the float so if you look closely you will see the valve it is opening and closing when it drops and raises. Spray that well with the carb cleaner. If you have an air adjustment on the side of the carb (usually a screw with a spring between it and the carb) you can remove it and spray a few shots of the cleaner in that hole as well. Before you remove it screw it all the way in till it just stops and count the number of turns it takes to do so. Once you have sprayed the carb cleaner in the hole you can reinsert the screw, screw it down lightly and then back it out the number of turns you counted. Take your time and do this over a towel so if you drop any parts it falls on the towel. The can of carb cleaner can be used with 2 or 4 cycle engines. Mix it with the gas in your fuel tank according to the directions on the can.

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 12/30/2009 19:16:37

Charley Sheets
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Response Posted - 12/30/2009 : 20:53:09

WOW! The while thing sounds like what i fought to a standstill this spring. I replaced the squeeze bulb tightened the fuel line fittings and found a leak on the back side of the fuel hose connector inside the motor. Also replaced the "O" dings inside the fuel hose connector. Along with new plugs, i found out why the motor would studder or miss sometimes, The fitting on the plug that connects to the wire was loose and fell off when i removed the wire. The main problem for this time was separation or stratification inside the fuel tank. Premix fuel and oil combined with ethanol in the gas i WAS using gave me a layer of water then gas then oil or something like that. I saw a quart jar on the counter at a boat dealer and was totally shocked. Mu marina sells fuel with NO ethanol in it and my motor runs fine now. Although i hear all the time of people with trouble from a good engine. Dump the old gas when you start up in the spring and eliminate any chance of fuel problems. Or keep your anchor at the ready. Charley Sheets

Edited by - on

NCBrew
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Response Posted - 12/31/2009 : 01:39:19

Bortiquai;
Try this.
Unplug the fuel line from the motor. Squeeze the bulb and it should get firm. If that does not happen you have a problem some where in the line.
Most likely in the check valve in the bulb or an air leak in the line.
If it does not get firm, replace the whole line, hose, fittings and bulb.

If it does get firm then the problem may be the fuel. Dump the fuel and fill it with new fuel/oil mixture. Do not continue to spray any more carb cleaner because it being a 2 stroke the cylinders are not being lubricated.

From your prior comments it sounds like the motor is not flooded.

If you can, take the bowl off the carb and check the float. If the float is hanging down, squeeze the bulb. Gas should pour out. With the float hanging down you should be able to see the needle jet. Look down the arm of the float and as you lift the float it should shut the needle valve (small round thing leaning on the float arm). As you release the float the needle should fall down. Hold the float up and then release it. Can you see the nettle valve going up and down as you lift and release the float?

Next dump all the fuel and replace it or if anyone has the same tank and connectors (walk around and see if anyone has the same brand of motor as yours and ask them if you can borrow their tank and fuel line.

I wish I was there and could fix it for you because it is hard to analyze problems remotely.

Edited by - on

DaveR
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Response Posted - 12/31/2009 : 07:23:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> The carb likely needs to be gone through to get rid of any mechanical blockage, <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And the number 1 thing that has cured ob problems for me is blowing compressed air through every orifice on the carb. Some are quite small and easy to miss. The one that seats the needle valve under the float hinge my have a valve seat in it that can be lost if not careful.

Edited by - on

Bortiquai
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Response Posted - 12/31/2009 : 08:39:43

Wow, thanks to everyone's help, things are way better now than 2 days ago. I think i've narrowed it down to a priming problem, either in the fuel line or bulb or the carburetor. I have repaced the fuel line connector, but not the whole fuel line.

But basically, if i don't run the gas out of the carburator, and leave the fuel line connected, it starts up first time everytime hot or cold. Even with cold with no choke. I've definitly seen improvement since i took the carburator apart, but the big difference maker seems to be not running to empty.

The problem with my engine, is that i can't remove the bowl, or see the float/needle valve unless I take the carburator out and take it apart. I think. Maybe i'll post some pictures of it.

Well, I am feeling much better about it thanks to all the help and suggestions. I used to fear engines. Way more moving parts than a sail.

Edited by - on

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