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New sails being ordered... a few questions

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T_Hamer
Deckhand

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USA
2 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 11:25:06

We build our sails at our loft in the Caribbean.

-Toby

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 11:48:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by T_Hamer
 Dear Catalina Owners:

My name is Toby Hamer and I am the Director of National Sales and Marketing for Kelly-Hanson Sails...

1. Our sails are NOT built in China, Taiwan, Vietnam or anywhere else in Asia for that matter. We have full quality control over every sail we build and distribute. We are headquartered in San Diego and our distribution center is located in the Denver, Colorado area. I am based in Denver and personally inspect each lot of sails that are built prior to sale.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Gotcha. So where are they built? (Just curious...)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Originally posted by T_Hamer
 We build our sails at our loft in the Caribbean.

-Toby<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Aaaaahhh, that narrows it down.

Edited by - John Russell on 01/28/2010 11:49:21

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 13:37:44

Not to discount Kelly-Hanson Sails -- they may be great sails -- but what's the difference between sails built to spec by cheap labor in the Caribbean and sails built to spec by cheap labor in the Far East? I suspect that North, Ullmann, and other sailmakers in the US inspect the sails they import before they ship them out, too. My genoa was from Scott Sails: built overseas, but Jim Scott unrolled it for me personally (and helped me bend it on my roller furler). It's a fine sail, but I was disappointed when I learned it wasn't constructed locally.

Are there any genuine build-it-on-the-premises sailmakers in the U.S. anymore?

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 14:04:49

Dave, interesting that question was not answered at the beginning since it seemed to be at the forefront of most! I went to the link but got this error:

This domain has recently been purchased.
Please allow 48 hours for this domain be to be active.

Steve A

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 14:43:55

Brooke, I don't think there's anything wrong with sails built off-shore. I bought one built in Thailand. I'd suspect that the OEM Catalina sails that came with my boat were probably built offshore as well. We live in a global economy and are pretty ill-infomed if we think that only things made in America are of good quality. I don't really care where his sails are made, I just find it curious that he chooses to obfuscate the name of the country they're built in. The status of his website just increases my curiousity.

Edited by - on

mlg3733
Navigator

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118 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 14:54:44

Check Liberty sails in Philly, they make them right there using products as local as they can find them:
http://www.canvasandsails.com/

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 15:02:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Are there any genuine build-it-on-the-premises sailmakers in the U.S. anymore?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sure, Elliott Pattison http://www.epsails.com/index.htm

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 15:54:10

John, I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with the sails per se. I know my Scott genoa, and I suspect my Doyle main, were made overseas. I don't want to chase a political/economic rabbit here -- but I like Wendell Berry's understanding of economic democracy: when the sources of production and sources of consumption are as close together as possible.

Having said that, all our cars are Japanese, our cameras are Japanese, and I like French wine.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 19:01:37

Many of the sailmakers have their sails made overseas. My sails are made by Quantum and they make the cruising sails in South Africa but i believe their racing sails are made in the USA.

It would probably be very hard to compare if there is any difference at all depending on where overseas a sail is made. It is probably more important as to how the sailmaking is managed and skill of their workers at the location.

But it's the sailcloth that you have to evaluate first. Not all so called Dacron sails are the same. Before it goes to the sailmaker...what material grade is the sailcloth and do you now anything about it ? Do you know the different matl grades offered by the few sail cloth mfrs and what the benefits are of each grade. Not all dacron is created equal. Some is made with heavier fill matls and high tenacity threads. A lighter, high grade sail cloth matl will be less prone to stretch compared to a heavier, lower grade sail cloth matl.

Yes, it is true as was stated earlier that the big sailmakers like Doyle, North and Quantum advertise a lot and that drives up the cost of the sails. But Quantum also uses the 2nd most expensive Challenge sail cloth matl to make their cruising sails - Challenge High Aspect. It is less prone to stretching compared to the grades below it which is what many sailmakers use - Challenge High Modulus or Challenge Performance.

The sail cloth is one big difference between the cost of one sail and another. Sure, making it overseas and whatever the labor cost there factors in as well as advertising budgets and being a well known popular brand. Then there are some sailmakers that mainly cut the sails as a custom job versus off the shelf. Those that come down to your sailboat, take measurements and then for example build the furling Genoa with some input from you, those sails are going to cost much more.

Anyone wanting to look into the sail cloth matls to get a feel for the differences, rcmd visit the Mack Sails website and from their go to the Challenge Sailcloth website. The Challenge website has all the sailcloth grades they sell along with the spec sheets and graphs that indicate the degree that these matls give. But if the graphs don't confuse you, the fun really starts when you want to compare the Challenge sailcloths to other sailcloth mfrs grades. Some of the other sailcloths/mfrs do not list the specs with enough detail for the avergae person to make any comparisons.

So....then maybe best to throw in the towel - If a bunch on this Forum are happy with one or two sailmakers and the sails they bought from them....then just go with their suggestions. It's probably a safe way to go. But...if you have two mfrs offering sails made out of a sailcloth from the same sailcloth mfr, then I would at least check out if both salmakers are using the same grade sailcloth...because that may explain the difference in the sail costs....and how prone one over the other may be toward stretching significantly....3-4-5 years from now.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 20:07:58

We'd probably feel better about them if they charged 20% more.

Larry makes a good point, but I don't have the background to separate spurious impressive numbers from significant values and interpret the data. I think you should spend your money and let us know I we should spend ours.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 22:06:30

I already did

at the end.

I admit it is very hard to compare the attributes of one sailcloth to another. That's probably why few even mention it as a factor in the sail cost, their decision-making process and in above responses. Just thought it should be mentioned ...in case someone had not considered it as a factor. It's a factor regarding how one sail will stretch vs another sail over time/years. Those that do not sail that often, it's probably not a factor.

and besides....it is a bear comparing sail cloth matls.

So.... That's why I ended saying that many may be better off going by what others on the Forum have purchased and have logged years of good experiences. But if interested...maybe just curiosity, there are ways with a little bit of detective work to compare the sailcloth one sailmaker is providing vs another sailmaker.

Edited by - on

Chip
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 23:44:42

Kelly Hanson Sails are built by Doyle Sails in Barbados. . The fabric they use is Dimension Polyant Coastal. It's a good cloth. Manufactured in Germany. It's their econo-line. I use it. It makes decent sails.

I know (Art)Kelly Hanson(wifes maiden name) Sails. He wanted to purchase my company a few years back. I own Point Sails/Whirlwind Sails in San Diego. I've been a sailmaker for the past twenty years. Having worked for North Sails and Hobie Cat before starting my own company.

KHS contracts with a manufacturer(Doyle) to build sails in batches. I know this for a fact. He sent boxes of them to my shop in anticipation he was going to buy me out. He was looking for credibility. He promised me the world. He flew me to Colorado, put me up in a hotel, bought me nice meals.

Don't get me wrong. The sails he is selling are good.

Toby tried to bamboozle me a few months ago. He sent me an email order for a few of my catamaran sails. Included was his credit card info. I ran the card for the deposit and started gearing for production when I remembered a google news email I recieved a few days before from a Toby. "Kelly Hanson Sails San Juan 24"

They wanted to steal my designs and sell copies on the Internet. I quickly emailed them back told him I had caught them red handed and credited their card back the deposit I had charged. I received no reply.

Then again tonight I get another google news "Kelly Hanson Sails" update. This time on your forum.

I am challenging them to post PROOF of their 20 year history in the business. That is my beef with them. They got that phrase from me, I was the veteran sailmaker. Betcha Toby didn't know that.

Let them sell you sails. The quality is good. Just don't be under the impression they are sailmakers.

If Art wants to send me nasty emails he can. I'll post them along with all the others he sent me.

Edited by - Chip on 01/29/2010 13:17:28

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 09:51:30

Enlightening.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 10:33:50

Ain't the WWW and Google wonderful things!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 15:01:00

And Dave's says he's in Djibouti.

Edited by - on

Chip
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 16:03:45

Chip Buck, age 42, apprenticed as a sailmaker for a friend during the summer of '88 when I was teaching windsurfing in the Gorge.

I built my first windsurfing sail in '91 while working for North Sails One Design. In 1994 I was hired by Young America as a night time sailmaker during the America's Cup in San Diego. The teams sailed in the day. The sailmakers repaired and re-cut sails at night. Later that spring the Hobie Cat Company hired me to run their sail loft. I developed new designs and mangaged a crew of twelve.

In '98 I left Hobie Cat on good terms and started my sailmaking business full time. Since then I have personally built sails for dinghies, off-shore cruisers, rental fleets, multi-hulls and windsurfing sails. I ship sails around the world under the brand www.whirlwindsails.com.

I personally know most of the guys at Dimension Polyant. They are my main supplier of cloth for my catamaran business. I asked them if they supply cloth to KHS. They were unaware of them.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 17:00:03

This is getting better than the Vice-Presidential Debates! I was wondering if there would be any value to contacting other vendors and speak on this topic as well. Do you think they would dare?
Steve A

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 17:13:05

Great ! Sure glad the plot thickened ! Thought you guys were going to gang up on me ranting about comparing sailcloth matls ! Now reading last postings...the sailcloth matl seems to be a non-issue compared to checking out the sailmaker !

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 20:12:17

All interesting -- but -- get the quote from offshore or wherever, take it to your local, reliable, chosen sail loft and I bet, in this economy, they will meet the price. Ullman Ventura, who builds most Catalina sails will and I suspect others will also. For cruising, price and decent quality rule -- for racing, other factors enter the picture -- but it's a buyers economy regardless, so dicker!!

Edited by - on

Chip
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2010 : 21:09:49

Ullman Ventura, just like all the other Ullman lofts, purchase most of their sails from China Sail Factory. There aren't that many lofts remaining that build their own sails. The owner of China Sail Factory made a special trip to the US to keep his clients happy when some wanted to switch suppliers.

China Sail Factory also supplies Doyle, Neil Pryde( you would think they had a sail boat loft ), Scott Sails and more independent sailmakers than you would imagine.

Rollie Tasker Sails in Thailand supplies sails to The Sail Warehouse, National Sail Supply, and a few other discounters.

Dimension Polyant just opened up their own production facility in Sri Lanke hoping to cash in on the off-shore production craze.

UK, North, Quantum and Hyde each own their own offshore factories.

How do I know all of this? I talk to my cloth suppliers on a daily basis, I asked questions, they are more than happy to fill me in on all of the gossip. It's a small community.

Our US global trade policy has lifted all trade barriers for incoming textile goods. There are no taxes or tariffs put on the imported sails. Our industry isn't big enough to have lobbyists fight for our interests.

Sailmaking is a tough business. It's seasonal and with that comes economic hurdles every owner faces. What to do in the slow season with your staff? Lay them off when you don't have enough work. Try to hire them back for the on season and they aren't always there when you need them.

You either have to stay small or buy into the global economy and let your supplier take the burden.

Edited by - Chip on 01/29/2010 22:43:22

NCBrew
Captain

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USA
338 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 12:28:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance

Are there any genuine build-it-on-the-premises sailmakers in the U.S. anymore?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My local sailmaker is David Baxter and his loft is in Norfolk, VA. He made me 2 sails a few years back and I won the "Peanut Festival" race the next weekend.

He is a 1 man loft and makes every sail himself.

There is a waiting list but he makes good sails. I can contact him if you want his phone number. He is putting "slugs" in my main at this time.

NCBrew

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 12:36:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mikeydmxz
 Good morning,

Having purchased many items from CD, I know most of what they offer has been a good product and they seem to have good QC. I have seen Ullman sails mentioned on this forum, but no reference to anyone having purchased an Ullman sail through CD. My guess is they are no better or worse than another competing loft, and the prices seem comparable also. Has anyone bought an Ullman sail through CD, if so, would you post your experience from the purchase through the use and longevity of the sail to this point? Thank you, Mike
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I bought a main and furling genny from CD/Ullman for my C22. I was very happy with the sails during the three years that I used them before selling the C22. Like you, I have found CD to have good quality gear and reasonable prices. Not the cheapest around but a fair deal IMHO.

When I replace the sails on my C250 over the next two years I will very likely go with CD again or go directly to Ullman.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 01/30/2010 12:37:44

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 12:53:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mikeydmxz
 Has anyone bought an Ullman sail through CD, if so, would you post your experience from the purchase through the use and longevity of the sail to this point? Thank you, Mike
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My boat's previous owner bought a new Ullman main and 110 Ullman jib from CD just 6 months before selling the boat. I have learned from this forum how to flake the hank-on jib to keep it stiff. The sails have been great for 5 seasons.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 15:29:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NCBrew
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance

Are there any genuine build-it-on-the-premises sailmakers in the U.S. anymore?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My local sailmaker is David Baxter and his loft is in Norfolk, VA. He made me 2 sails a few years back and I won the "Peanut Festival" race the next weekend.

He is a 1 man loft and makes every sail himself.

NCBrew
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I know David -- wonderful British chap. He recut the original main for my C25. He's terrific.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2010 : 20:22:08

It will be just fine.

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