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oregonworld
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/26/2010 : 21:12:49

I am new to the catalina forum and began casually looking for a Cat 25 since the fall. I'm now pretty ready to pull the trigger. I have come across an 89 wing keel with a 7.5 hp Honda motor and wanted to know if that was big enough. Seems that most have a 9.9hp. Also, I could use some advice on what to look for in the way of a motor. i.e. hp, shaft length, 4 or 2 stroke, etc. I plan on sailing on a small lake but taking it to the San Juans and eventually the Sea of Cortez.

Thanks,

Jared

Jared Cruce
1997 250WK "Inspiration"
#299
Honda 9.9
Ashland, OR

Edited by - on

Dale V
Deckhand

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USA
9 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 21:21:29

I think that the difference between a 7.9 and the 9.9 is a throtle stop screw. I have a 9.9 and very rarely get it above a high idle. I don't have the currents like you have out there so that might make a difference. You might want to post this on the General forum as there are a lot of more knowledable guys over there.
Have fun

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 21:53:28

You want the long shaft or extra-long shaft, especially if you plan to take the boat in large bodies of water with swells/waves. A short shaft motor will come out of the water.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 22:11:13

I have a Suzuki 8 HP and it seems to be enough for me. I sail in Galveston Bay with tidal currents to 2 knots and waves up to 4 feet and haven't had a problem but once and that was the prop coming out of the water in some short,steep waves. It only lasted about five minutes. I usually run at half throttle and see 4 - 5 knots on the GPS.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2010 : 23:46:07

Jared,
The Honda 7.5 is an older outboard that was eventually replaced by the 8HP model. That doesn't mean its not a good engine but it is older. 7.5 HP is just about right for a C25. A large number of people on this forum who have the 9.9 model have purchased Tohatsu's due to a good deal you can get from being a member of this forum with Online Outboards and not necessarily for the extra HP. If I was in your shoes I would use the engine on the lake you intend to sail on to get a feel for whether it is suitable for a San Juan or Sea of Cortez trip. If you feel you would rather have a newer, or larger, engine you should be able to offset the cost by selling the 7.5. You should try and figure out if it is a regular, long or extra long shaft. If you can post a side picture of it we can probably identify which model it is. If you don't have the user manual for it check [url="http://marine.honda.com/owners/manuals"]here[/url] for a copy. You will need the serial number off the engine. Welcome to the forum!

Edited by - on

Dave Otey
Navigator

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USA
112 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 08:00:12

Hello Jared.

4 stroke burns cleaner. There was talk of outlawing two strokes at one time. Not sure what came of it. All 4 strokers I am familiar with run quieter than 2 strokers.

Consider electric starter.

I chose a 9.8 Tohatsu long shaft for more power in the rivers I travel (2 knot currents), electric start, quieter, cost, charges my battery bank, and more power / torque in rough seas. I did find out after I purchased the 9.8 that the block used for the 9.8 is also used for the 15hp engine by some engine manufacturers. Given the similar weight of the two I may have opted for the 15hp.

Tohatsu / Nissan do offer a "remote" throttle control apparatus allowing you to start,stop and control the engine's throttle from within the cockpit. I opted not to purchase this feature so not to clutter the cockpit anymore than necessary.IMHO.

Bottom line is the Nissan and Tohatsu engines are very price competitive and can be ordered on-line and shipped direct to your home. The crankcase and fuel tank will be dry. I believe the lower end drive unit will be packed with grease before shipping.

Good luck hunting for the right fit.

Edited by - on

oregonworld
1st Mate

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USA
68 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 08:04:42

Thanks for the info. Sounds like the shaft length is most important. I'll try and get a pic or model number and post it. From what I have researched a new 9.9 is roughly $2k?

Thanks again,

Jared

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 08:47:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oregonworld
 Thanks for the info. Sounds like the shaft length is most important. I'll try and get a pic or model number and post it. From what I have researched a new 9.9 is roughly $2k?

Thanks again,

Jared
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have a 9.9 4 stroke Mercury long shaft which is more than enough for me. I would think that if the PO used this motor on this boat it should be fine. Take the boat out for a test sail and pay close attention to how easily the engine starts cold and how the boat acts under power. Even though my engine is a 2007 with little use, I had a heck of a time getting it to start last season. It was the most aggravating part of sailing for me until I learned it's little "tricks" (In my case the engine floods super easy so now I hardly even squeeze the ball by the gas tank and now it fires right up.)The only upside to this is that it forced me to learn to sail out and back in to the dock several times.

In talking to other owners who have two strokes, they can be pesky to start. They are way noisier and smokier than a 4 stroke outboard but I've seen a guys with tiny 2 strokes push 30 foot boats.

You don't want to get too big of an engine that doesn't push the boat faster (hull speed is hull speed) but adds extra unnecessary weight. I would say 9.9 is at the upper limit of what you would ever need but then again, I'm in a lake and I only use the engine to leave and return to my slip.

Edited by - PCP777 on 01/27/2010 08:50:01

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 08:55:42

I replaced my Honda 10 with a Tohatsu 9.8, and have been very pleased, now going into my 3rd year of use. I opted for the electric start - although whenever the batteries are dead I can start the motor in 2-3 pulls, if not the first. Extra long shaft is critical for stormy conditions. The last thing you want to worry about in heavy weather is your prop coming out of the water as would be the case on a shorter shaft.
As a bonus, the tohatsu can charge your batteries, although I don't motor enough to really benefit from that feature.
I ordered from onlineoutboards - they were great to work with.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 10:00:34

We bought a Tohatsu 9.8 a couple of years ago from Online Outboards for about the stated $2k and are very happy with it. I wanted electric start so it was easy for Rita to be able to start (even though I make her start it once in a while from rope pull just so she knows how). It is substantially heavier than our 8hp Johnson Sailmaster that came with the boat, but the extra weight is more than offset by the performance, quiet, lower gas consumption with no mixing, battery charging, and virtually no smoke. It got very old listening to, and smelling the Johnson on long motoring trips. With the Tohatsu, if it's idling, you kind of have to feel the vibration in the boat to know it's running. Very nice. It pushes our C-250 along at about 4.5 kts at about 1400 RPM. We bought a Tiny Tach & mounted it so we can track engine hours and RPM. A very nice addition for about $35 if I remember correctly.

Another upside, I was able to sell my Johnson on Craigslist the first day I listed it (for twice what I listed it here for). It sold for $800 and the guy was VERY glad to have it. That helped offset the cost of the Tohatsu very nicely.

All that said, I think a 7.5 in good shape will probably push your boat very nicely. My Johnson was probably a good engine, but I have a fear of small engines failing me, and figured a brand new one would take years to get to that state. There's no way for me to sail into my slip, so I have to have an extremely reliable engine to get us home.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 10:38:33

I agree 7.5 is plenty--I had a Honda 8, and never ran it past about 2/3 thottle--I'd say mostly around half, even in some big wind and waves on the nose. Currents are immaterial--the boat can only travel through the water up to about 6 knots, so in a 2-knot current against you, your max "over the bottom" is about 4 knots, and more power won't change that.

As some have mentioned, the Extra Long (XL) models are the thing to have if you're going out into big water. They are sometimes listed as 25" shafts--sometimes 27.x"--depending on how they're measured. That's 5" more than a "long", and those 5" make a big difference in chop. I don't think the H-7.5 offered an XL.

Snap up that '89 (after a survey) and then see how you like the Honda, including through some big boat wakes on your lake. Then sell it for a nice number and pick up a Tohatsu 9.8 XL with electric start and an alternator.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 14:10:19

Ditto what Dave says. I have a Honda 8.5 which came with the boat. Also never had at full throttle-the noise alone would kill me!

I recall looking at two C250's, one had a 6 or 6.5 and that seemed a bit underpowered to me, especially ocean sailing, so I went with my current 8.5, PiSeasII. Other than the weight, I am extremely happy.

David, re "no way to sail in my slip" having sailed with you I can understand how you might say that but I said the same thing about my slip until a friend of mine did it. I was impressed with his skill and now know as it can be done with finesse and patience! Unfortunately I lack the latter.
Steve A

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 14:53:02

Steve,
You've sailed with me and seen the setup of the marina, shipping channel, bridges, etc. I think I could negotiate the shipping channel since it's a pretty constant river current, but I'd pretty much have to have the wind out of the north or east (rare). Making the 180° U-turn into the fairway and then another 90° into my slip under sail would be tricky at best. It could probably be done if the wind was from the south, but there would be no way to recover if I missed the turn into the slip, plus I wouldn't be able to sail up the shipping channel with a south wind. If it were coming from the north, I'd have no way on when I needed to make my turn, so I'd have to scull the rudder (which I've done lots of times on my San Juan, but on a lake with no currents). I have a ridge to my west blocking wind, and two story buildings on top of a steep bank to the east, so getting reliable wind on either beam would be problematic at best. With winds out of the north east I might be able to do it, if the tide weren't running too hard or the river wasn't in flood.

It would be interesting to try, but I imagine it'd take several tries to get it right. I'd also imagine I'd end up with some scrapes and gel coat boo-boos in the process. I'm unlikely to ever try since there is far too much commercial traffic going up & down the channel. The last thing I want to do is try to negotiate a very narrow channel under sail while dodging a tug with a giant barge attached to it through a narrow bridge opening.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 18:11:43

6 HP is plenty to move the boat, even on a long cruise. I have the Tohatsu 9.8 for the XXL shaft, electric start, battery charging, super high reliability, and quiet/vibration-free running. Mostly for the XXL shaft. Purchased from Online Outboards. Never failed me in 2 years and about 4000 miles of sailing including some 15 hour days motoring. Good MPG, too, at least 10 mpg and planning on 15 while motorsailing is more practical (at 5 knots).

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 20:14:53

Just for comparison, you might like to know that I borrowed a little 2.5 hp, two-stroke, Mercury outboard last summer for a while when my Honda 9.9 was in the shop. It pushed the boat in and out of the slip just fine, and could get the boat up to 4 or 5 knots.

A 7.5 hp outboard is plenty of power unless you are in strong currents, as mentioned before.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2010 : 21:10:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 ...I'm unlikely to ever try since there is far too much commercial traffic going up & down the channel. The last thing I want to do is try to negotiate a very narrow channel under sail while dodging a tug with a giant barge attached to it through a narrow bridge opening.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Good instincts--those captains generally don't have a lot of patience for boats under sail in "their" channel.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 10:09:50

David, I was referring to getting in and out of our slips and not taking into consideration safety or conditions. Ya sailing in your shipping channel w/o a motor would probably be suicide with those large ships coming at you. The time I went out with you, that was an issue as I recall. It was like being on a freeway there but there was a huge size difference between cars and trucks and ours boats and those large ships.
I have no doubt however of your sailing skills and if anyone could pull it off with the right conditions, you could.
For me, I know now it is possible to sail into my slip but if the motor went out I would definitely call BoatUS for a tow hoping they would get to me before I could sail back to my slip.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 01/28/2010 14:23:30

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 13:39:21

David pointed out the other amazing thing about the Tohatsu. It's so QUIET (guess I shouldn't capitalize that, lol). When it's idling or at low RPM's you really forget it's even running. You can sit in the cockpit and carry on a quiet conversation.

And the gas mileage is fantastic. I only use my motor getting in and out of the marina or occasionally when a big storm kicks up and I have to retreat to a marina with my tail between my legs (or in sailor speak "with my jib flogging on deck"). But my cowardice is another issue. The point is, I can go for months on a little 3 gallon gas can.

Great idea on the tachometer, I think I'll look into one of those.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 15:14:19

Here's a link to the [url="http://www.tinytach.com/tinytach/gasoline.php"]Tiny Tach[/url] site. I think I bought the TT226R-2C (resettable), but I'm actually not positive.

Edited by - delliottg on 01/28/2010 15:18:57

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2010 : 16:25:48

Thanks David - I'm adding that to my winter upgrades list!

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1778 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2010 : 19:15:45

All depends on your location. A small lake requires less than an estuary or open water where currents can wreak havoc. The real issue, IMHO is the length of shaft -- 25 inch is far superior unless on a very calm body of water. As far as new engines, the Tohatsu/Nissan/Mercury 9.8 seems to be the best value -- the Honda and Yamaha are solid but more expensive. Some still swear by (and at) the 2 stroke Johnson/Evinrude 9.9 "Sailmaster" 25' engines. Whomever services locally is also worth serious consideration. I think the general consensus is 7.5-9.8 hp 4 stroke are the best.

Edited by - on

cdreamonly
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2010 : 04:53:52

Thought I'd add my 2cents worth to this discussion.

I replaced a 15 hp evinrude 2 stroke with a yamaha T8EH a couple of years ago for much the same reasons others have talked about. It is a 8hp 4 stroke (no mixing of gas, quiet,efficient, reliable), long shaft (so that it doesn't come out of the water in the 4' chop on lake Ontario)and a "high thrust" model. It has a large diameter prop and is geared lower (lower prop rpm) which works well for a dispalcement boat. This is especially useful in stopping the boat when pulling into a slip too fast... I also liked the long motor tiller handle which allowed me to remove the controls the PO had installed in the cockpit & which I always seemed to hit with my foot at the worst time.

One more thing to think about..If you replace your motor be sure to also look at the motor mount. My motor weights in at approx 100 lbs (20 more than the old one)& I found that the 3 spring mount from Catalina Direct allows me to raise & lower the motor with very little effort.

Good luck & happy sailing...

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