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Sailing Over the Horizon on the Atlantic

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/16/2010 : 15:39:52

Here's a [url="http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/lostatsea.asp"]story[/url] on what it can be like when there's no place to hide and help is scarce... on an unidentified "30-foot sloop." No mention of an EPIRB or communication equipment other than (apparently) a VHF. Also no mention of the timeframe...

Association Port Captain, Mystic, CT
Past member and DPO of C-25 #5032
Now on Eastern 27 Sarge (but still sailing) and posting as "Stinkpotter".

Passage, Mystic, and Sarge--click to enlarge.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1318 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2010 : 16:11:01

Dave... thanks... the right decision is by leaving the boat tarped and stored!!... not sure I want Johanna to read this either...

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2010 : 17:28:11

Didn't those guys get a weather report before leaving?

Notice they mentioned "Loran". I'll bet this story is more than a few years old.

Were they trailing warps and trying to sail upwind?

The story is full of holes.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2010 : 19:46:48

Trailing Warps!!!

Someone posted this link earlier.

I think we should all read the article and it's related documents.

Thanks to the poster!

http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_3.htm
Paul

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2010 : 19:47:53

The story was just distributed through BoatUS, so I don't think it is all that old. I would not be surprised to learn that there is more to the story than was related to the insurance company.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/16/2010 : 20:13:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 Were they trailing warps and trying to sail upwind?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">They had furled the jib and were running under bare poles when they threw out the warps. As for weather reports, I know several people who've been "spanked" in the N. Atlantic due to the uncertainty of any forecast several days out. 500 miles (or whatever) off-shore and days from anywhere, you need to be prepared to deal with whatever weather comes along, because it very likely will.

Henk--I'm all for taking the tarp off and going sailing. Just don't sail the C-250 to Cameroon.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2010 : 08:38:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 Didn't those guys get a weather report before leaving?

Notice they mentioned "Loran". I'll bet this story is more than a few years old.

Were they trailing warps and trying to sail upwind?

The story is full of holes.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm with Jim on this one... But this is probably one of those stories designed to keep people tied up to all of those expensive but yet failing marinas.

Here's a little ditty for you:

I love to sit around the yacht club bar
and talk about the things we're going to do.
I love to sit around the yacht club bar
because it doesn't move.
The swells are big and the winds are high
but that don't bother me.
Cause I never get lost and my tummy doesn't toss
It's a wonderful life on the sea.
My boat it is a big one boys. My crew it is the best.
We race around the entrance buoy beating all the rest.
We're the first ones home with a bent elbow and a powerful salt spray thirst.
We sit around and drink all night and see who comes in first.

Chorus- I love to sit around the yacht club bar

I took her out one Sunday, we got about five miles out
The wind it was a screaming, right dead out of the south.
The waves they must have been two feet high, the swells at least one more.
I'm so lost and my tummy is tossed, I'll never get back to the shore.

My head it was a reeling, my feet got tangled up.
Those damn old sheets were everywhere, just trying to trip me up.
The halyard broke, the boom fell down, the main took off like a bird.
Mayday was my final cry as I dived beneath my berth.

My sailing days are over, cause of that great scare.
You others take a warning, and don't you go out there.
There's winds and seas and swells so high, how can you stay afloat.
Be like me and drink to the sea and don't untie your boat.

Written by Glenn Marsden in 1987, arranged by Dick and Chris Todd. These musically inclined folks met while cruising the lagoons of Baja California, Mexico. They all hailed from Newport Beach where, for most of the year, the average wind speed at the "entrance buoy" is from 5 to 12 knots.

Sten

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2010 : 10:28:20

Great ditty Sten. Here is a piece of one back at you

“But before this trip is laid behind
Lady Superior will come and expose her frozen mind
And to the nor east she’ll fashion a smile to cut the sea
Destroyed she can not be

She can however be defeated
But to peg her boots, will dissolve your youth”

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2010 : 12:12:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...But this is probably one of those stories designed to keep people tied up to all of those expensive but yet failing marinas.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No, it's actually from an insurance company campaigning against losing boats (and people) so they don't have to replace them (the boats). But it's good to have some blue-water adventurers around who can smirk at coastal cowards like me.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2010 : 14:16:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...But this is probably one of those stories designed to keep people tied up to all of those expensive but yet failing marinas.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No, it's actually from an insurance company campaigning against losing boats (and people) so they don't have to replace them (the boats). But it's good to have some blue-water adventurers around who can smirk at coastal cowards like me.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No smirking. You are smart to stay within your boundaries. Few 30 foot sailboats are well equipped enough to handle the conditions they experienced, AND I sincerely doubt that Boat US insured them. I have to pay a premium when we voyaged south of Jacksonville and then we are NOT covered in the Bahamas and Boat US does not offer this coverage outside of the US. Again, too many holes in the story.

Further stupidity. The Captain of the sailboat did not scuttle his vessel. The Captain of the rescuing vessel and the Captain of the possible salvage vessel too did not scuttle the vessel, thereby creating yet another hazard to navigation.

No mention of weather reports. If this were a modern passage, this vessel would have at least had a SSB radio, or a shortwave radio capable of downloading GRIB files.

No liferaft? Again, this does not make sense. If there had beena liferaft, then the crew should have deployed it and used it as the boarding craft for the rescue. More stupidity.

No EPIRB? They have been around for quite some time now.

Skipper on deck making warps by himself? Hatch open? Didn't check for lines in the water before starting engine?

Most abandoned vessels are found floating. Removing the injured crewman would have been wise, but the risks to the rest of the crew are pretty stupid considering that the vessel did survive the ordeal.

sten

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2010 : 22:27:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...AND I sincerely doubt that Boat US insured them...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
From BoatUS: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...based on the individual accounts in the BoatUS Marine Insurance claim files by each of the five-member crew...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup--demerits for no EPIRB or liferaft, although if they had a liferaft, I can understand that under those circumstances they might have hoped they could get to the ship from the boat. It's easy to second-guess when you're reading this by the fireplace (or at the dock)--they just wanted to be on the freighter after being knocked completely down and very nearly losing a crew-member.

I know boats with Loran (they're using the Canadian signals now that the US has shut it down)... I know sailors without SSB who probably think Bermuda is doable... (We're talking 750 miles here--we're not talking about the Bahamas.) I don't understand them, but I know them. I'd say they're in the same category as those who head for Bermuda in a 30' Catalina/Beneteau/O'Day/Hunter not realizing that during a week (or more), they could very likely run into some of the N. Atlantic's fury. There are no one-week "weather windows" out there.

And I can imagine it's hard to think about all the correct elements of seamanship when you're in 50 knot winds with 20-30' breaking seas and blinding spray several days from any shelter. The focus was getting to that ladder alive--not what was going to happen to the boat.

The second ship that found the boat probably should have scuttled it.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/18/2010 22:30:19

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2010 : 06:34:29

Just checked. Boat US does not currently offer coverage for anything other than Atlantic Coastal, however they do offer coverage in the Bahamas now, but no further south. I decided to see if I could buy insurance for the vessel described, and I couldn't.

I agree that under trying cirmstances that it is often hard to slow things down and think clearly, but this is the captains responsibility PRIOR to leaving the dock. A good Captain will have already thought out the worst case scenarios - I have rehearsed this particular scenario already and have covered the basics with my wife should the need to abandon ship ever occurs. Look at the next container ship you see and look for where they might drop the ladder - which resembles a big net. That's a tough climb even under the best of circumstances. I would be hard pressed to want to attempt it unless the situation was extremely dire. Which I am sure is how these guys felt when they voted to abandon ship.

Sten
On a ball - Dinner Key FL

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2010 : 08:28:19

Well, this could broaden the topic a bit. In May-June, 1989 I sailed my Cape Dory 30, "Lady" from New Orleans to Puerto Rico. The vessel was bank financed and insured by Boat US. I had to write very detailed letters to both firms seeking permission to make the voyage, but it was eventually granted.

In September, 1989, Hurricane Hugo struck the Caribbean and went on up to S. Carolina. Big storm. I had the good fortune to be up in the yard for repairs and so was only knocked off my jackstands. (some cretin stole my chains) One little scratch in the bottom paint. The yard charged $500 to stand "Lady" back up. I told this story to the adjuster at Boat US and she said "that's why your policy is as high as it is, this is happening all over."

Shortly after that, probably fall of 1989, but certainly by spring of 1990, BOAT US dropped all Caribbean coverage. We all had to go out and get fresh surveys and find new policies. Surveyors had a good year that year. Boat owners a bad one.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2010 : 06:28:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by crcalhoon
 Well, this could broaden the topic a bit. In May-June, 1989 I sailed my Cape Dory 30, "Lady" from New Orleans to Puerto Rico. The vessel was bank financed and insured by Boat US. I had to write very detailed letters to both firms seeking permission to make the voyage, but it was eventually granted.

In September, 1989, Hurricane Hugo struck the Caribbean and went on up to S. Carolina. Big storm. I had the good fortune to be up in the yard for repairs and so was only knocked off my jackstands. (some cretin stole my chains) One little scratch in the bottom paint. The yard charged $500 to stand "Lady" back up. I told this story to the adjuster at Boat US and she said "that's why your policy is as high as it is, this is happening all over."

Shortly after that, probably fall of 1989, but certainly by spring of 1990, BOAT US dropped all Caribbean coverage. We all had to go out and get fresh surveys and find new policies. Surveyors had a good year that year. Boat owners a bad one.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's why I think this is an old story - which explains a lot... If I have time, I may just have to make a phonecall. I hate misinformation that discourages smaller vessels from transiting. A friend of ours on a Pacific Seacraft 24 went to Bermuda with no real issues - single handed.

sten

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2010 : 09:07:24

I have been following the exploits of the great small boat circumnavigators for too long to believe that voyaging in a small boat is unreasonably dangerous, and reserved for daredevils. There are many common denominators among the successful small boat passagemakers. Like Sten, they are intolerant of poor seamanship. They choose a boat and equipment that are up to the task. They have a realistic appreciation of all the bad things that can happen to a small boat at sea, and they are neither surprised nor unprepared when it happens. We have seen successful young circumnavigators (eg. Zac Sunderland), elderly circumnavigators (Eric and Susan Hiscock, and Francis Chichester), and resourceful, low budget circumnavigators (Lynn and Larry Pardey). They have spent lifetimes making safe passages through the most treacherous areas in the world.

However, there are always people who are overly anxious, and unwilling to take the time and effort to prepare and to learn, and who are unrealistic about the hardships they'll face. Those are the ones we hear about, because their stories of survival are the most gripping. When Sten makes a relatively uneventful passage, or when an old-timer from my marina sails successfully from the Chesapeake Bay to the Virgin Islands and back, only a few friends hear about it.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2010 : 09:26:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A friend of ours on a Pacific Seacraft 24 went to Bermuda with no real issues<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, I'd rather go out there on the full-keeled, cutter-rigged, blue-water [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGupz_9mGc"]PS Dana 24[/url]

than a C-25. Even better--the Cape Dory 30!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/20/2010 09:27:12

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2010 : 10:22:25

First, what were they thinking sailing with an open hatch in seas like this. My sense is that this was a serious survival voyage being undertaken by crew who were not quite up to it. The man who had a heart attack a few years earlier should not have been there in such a small boat in such unpredictable weather. The skipper probably made the right call, but the boarding was probably more dangerous than waiting it out. My sense was that the main problem was a seriously shaken and demoralized crew. We get ourselves in serious problems when our intentions are not clear.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2010 : 06:30:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 Like Sten, they are intolerant of poor seamanship.

However, there are always people who are overly anxious, and unwilling to take the time and effort to prepare and to learn, and who are unrealistic about the hardships they'll face. Those are the ones we hear about, because their stories of survival are the most gripping. When Sten makes a relatively uneventful passage, or when an old-timer from my marina sails successfully from the Chesapeake Bay to the Virgin Islands and back, only a few friends hear about it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Damn freaking right I'm intolerant! The sea, she can be an evil mistress. She lures the irresponsible and the unprepared and then we all have to explain that WE are not the crazy ones. and yes, I never talk about the uneventful passages, only the ones wherein we slide sideways off of a 10 foot plus wave or get our mast caught up with fishing gear.

sten

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